Tone bars - everything you know is wrong.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Aug 2006 8:28 pm

Had a few minutes today to drop by Jim Palenscar's great Shop in north San Diego County. For fun, I handed him my 1 1/4" acrylic bar (the one b0b says can't allow a steel guitar to sound right, that something must be wrong with my amp).

Jim was kind of amazed.

Then I had him try the Delrin bar.

Again, a look of wonder and puzzlement. So far, everything SHOULD have sounded like garbage. Or a banjo. But didn't. Sounded fine, with slightly different nuances like many bars.

Then the last one - a gray nylon/molybdenum (MDS Nylon) bar. That's when the confusion started. It wasn't possible it could sound like this, per conventional wisdom.

The nylon/moly bar was warm, had nice sustain, a smooth feel and is VERY light. Interestingly, NONE of the bars sounded like the rumored "banjo sound". All slightly different, each has their own place - but none were unusable in a normal playing setting, and most people probably would not know the difference. Plus, there were two big differences - size; each was 1 1/4, except the delrin with was 1 3/8; and weight, which was a fraction of a "normal" tone bar.

It was fun hearing them on more "normal" setups than my Fenders/low-powered tube amps and hear exactly the same kind of results.

They sure are fun to use! Thanks to David Mason for having the wherewithall to try something different - because it works. And FAR better than most people STILL probably think, even after reading this post. I had to check my ag wen I got home to make sure they were all still in there...hehehe.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 August 2006 at 09:28 PM.][This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 August 2006 at 09:43 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Aug 2006 10:20 pm

Dave does indeed make some interesting bars out of new and different materials, and they do sound pretty good. But Albert Svendaal sometimes plays with a hard boiled egg.

I don't think anything can top that.

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Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 6 Aug 2006 12:07 am

I use a bronze bar which I bought in the UK during WW2 because it was the only type available,and I've used it ever since. I don't see any mention of bronze bars in the many posts on the subject, so any opinions would be welcome.
Incidentally it was made for 6 string lap steel, and therefore suits my small hands,but it works on the U12 which I play these days.
It has always seemed to me that the size of a bar should depend primarily on the size of the user's hand,other factors being secondary in importance. IMHO

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 6 Aug 2006 12:25 am

Bruce, have you made or are you going to make recordings with you on U12?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Aug 2006 2:22 am

I wouldn't say EVERYTHING you know is wrong.... all else being equal, sustain is still a function of weight. If you're after long, slow, volume pedal swells, you just can't go wrong with a three-quarter pound, 1" X 3.75" steel bar. I'm after things like classical violin parts and Sonny Rollins sax licks, and the heavy, slippery little steel bars just won't get to the necessary frets in time to hit the notes at the appointed speeds - if it could be done, somebody somewhere would have done it? (Darn Dave Easley's hide...) It's funny what Jim said about tone, because the delrin bars are my own personal favorite - the tone is really round and warm, so you can use a lot more screaming overdrive without it becoming shrill. Reverse logic I know.

I have made many 1" bars out of various plastics and the weight dips below what seems acceptable to me to remain musical, they're more like a novelty b@njo/koto sound (which does have it's uses, of course - just not very often, please). I like 1.25" and 1.375" bars for the ease of handling - I have made some 1.5" bars that do begin to get bulky as far as muting behind the strings. I just bought but haven't yet received some 1.25" delrin stock which should make a fine, fine bar too - some of this stuff is pretty expensive to buy retail, so I mostly depend on Ebay gleanings. (It's not the cost-per-foot that bites so hard, it's the eight foot minimum order and $37 shipping charges....)

The good news is I can make any length or nose contour possible - because maximum weight is hardly an issue I personally like to use the longest bar I can easily handle, 3.875" or even 4" with a rounded butt. The larger diameter bars do tend to "sitar-out" on full chordal slants, so in that respect the 1.25" bars are more versatile than the 1.375" ones. The bad news is I have a pretty busy life and can't bang these things out like a factory, I could speed up my processes if enough people show some interest in buying enough bars but for now it's all slow, one-at-a-time custom work.[This message was edited by David Mason on 06 August 2006 at 06:21 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Aug 2006 5:11 am

"I wouldn't say EVERYTHING you know is wrong"

...old Firesign Theater line. Just made for a fun title.

Re the Delrin, we were using it at low volume, and clean. I noticed the same thing cranked up and with a little dirt - it REALLY changes and warms up. for most players here though, the application would be "clean" so that's why it was described in that context.

But for me, the moly excels at both. It just sounds huge.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 6 Aug 2006 5:13 am

Hey Jim,
What kind of amp is that in the background behind the steel? I don't recognize it.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 6 Aug 2006 5:25 am

Also, Jim, it would seem to me that softer composition will absorb more of the vibration energy from the strings, thus decreasing the sustain, but giving a more mellower (warmer) sound. Is this true? I know that a hard stainless steel bar sustains very well, but have not tried a softer composition bar.

On the Zirconia bars, the material itself is hard enough, but light. Can you get to a point where a bar is too light? In other words, if a bar is too light, do you have to compensate by pressing down on it a little harder to keep from getting string buzz? And if so, is the extra pressure needed, easier to put up with than an extra few ounces of steel weight?

Somebody chime in on this, please.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 6 Aug 2006 6:08 am

Re "weight" for sustain...there is a lot more to it than weight or lead would make a "good" bar...as in Looking For Mr. Goodbar?

RE zirconia bars...check the density for Zirc in general and you will find that it is about 3/4 that of tool steel. Also check scratch/abrasion resistance, hardnsess, and elasticity values, all of which (along with attainable finish/smoothness) are factors in a "good" bar.

Re that Svendaal cat and his egg, what kind of yolk is that? Albert will play with anything he can get his hands on...including one of the first Zirc bars.

Jim P now has the setup to show the difference between instruments, strings, pickups, pickup positions, bars, etc. re tone and sustain complete with printout...expect some interesting info from Jim to blow up or confirm some of the PSG world myths.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Aug 2006 6:25 am

I need to get some time with Jim so we can scope out the "data" on bars like on guitars. I'll talk to him about it - might be a fun and interesting project. If he's interested I'll try to get a day to spend with him.

"Also, Jim, it would seem to me that softer composition will absorb more of the vibration energy from the strings, thus decreasing the sustain, but giving a more mellower (warmer) sound."

Actually, this is where things get weird. That's what I though as well....but the sustain doesn't go away. It gets a "soft" (not quieter) tone, very warm and round. but it STILL sustains well. I think the moly blend into the nylon is the reason.

Also, weight does not seem to be a factor as far as sustain. Stability is. this is an old guitar thing - we went through years of brass bridges, even granite-slab bodies thining weight=sustain. It's been proven dead wrong by engineers (mechnical ones, not recording engineers) - hence in the "other" guitar world you see "Tusq" saddles on electric guitars without sustain being compromised. If your bar is stable and does not absorb a significant amount of string vibration, your sustain will be there. that's what I was sure of when David first talked about sending me my initial acrylic bar, and when I got it my thoughts were confirmed. hearing the bars on guitars OTHER than Fendrs really cemented the thought into place.

I'd read threads on the subject, and knew that while the material can make a difference, a stable, non-fibrous material is likely going to get close to steel in sound. Wood gets you a banjo tone, to be sure - vibration absorbing and sustain-killing. But these crazy things get you a steel tone with slight variations like with any other bars. and the larger size and light weight make them an absolute joy to play.

Curt - there are two amps back there - the close one is a Fender GDec, the greatest practice tool on the planet IMO. completely programmable MIDI amp with 50 presets (plus 20 "hidden ones"), all tweakable into 50 user slots; you can change styles of backup tracks, speed, song key, guitar effects...it's amazing. It'll also play any MIDI fils of your computer, and has a CD input for "play along" stuff...plus a headphone out. here's a new bigger version about to hit the streets - my son will get this on and I'll grab the new one.

The other amp is a 30-watt, 2x10 Holland Little Jimi. A cross between a Vibrolux Reverb and Vox AC-30. It is fantastic sounding with Fender steels and far louder than one would ever imagine with great headroom (when biased right). It's been my main studio amp for about 7 or 8 years.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 August 2006 at 07:29 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Aug 2006 6:43 am

I handed him my 1 1/4" acrylic bar (the one b0b says can't allow a steel guitar to sound right, that something must be wrong with my amp).

I'm sure I'm being misquoted. I use a variety of bars. The "right" sound depends on the context.

By the way, how do you measure sustain? I typically take my foot off the volume pedal, pick a chord, hold the bar very still, and watch the second hand of a stopwatch. In my experience, the softer materials sustain less. Also, they have a louder attack compared to the envelope of decay.

Some amplifiers compress the sound, making any measurement of sustain useless.[This message was edited by b0b on 06 August 2006 at 07:59 AM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 6 Aug 2006 7:15 am

Albert will play with anything he can get his hands on...including one of the first Zirc bars.

I believe Albert has THE first zirc bar, serial # 1.

I have #31.

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Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Aug 2006 8:23 am

a steel guitar just doesn't look right unless its being played with a shiny steel bar

calvin

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 6 Aug 2006 10:13 am

Sorry Mike...Alberts #1 is not THE first one made, nor is it the 1st of the production run.

The absolute first two that were made were for Bill Stafford, and myself. I did not put #s on these.

The first picker to see them was Pee Wee Whitewing when he and the HEART of TEXAS band and their families spent a week with us at the Ranch in NM. Pee Wee wanted one, and that is where we decided to do a run of the Zircs. Pee Wee's Number is 00 if I recall correctly, and with a pair of wings instead of his name.

There is an 007 among other off beat numbers.

Several had nick names like "cheeks" put on the bars.

The Zirc fever spread as they were seen at the shows. They are too expensive to make unless one already has the equipment needed.

Bill Stafford was the person that did the work = machining and polishing. The test for "smooth enough" was to scrub the strings with the bar and have no grey/black appear on the bar from "lapping" the metal of the strings. Your metal bars do this, but because of the color of the bar, you do not see it. White shows it.

Re sustain measurement...With the stop watch, when do you stop, and at what point in the loss of upper harmonics (how determined}.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Aug 2006 10:51 am

"Cheeks"? On a few of the bars I've made, I painted the butt end green in the hopes that when I become a secretive yet fabulously wealthy legend in the bar-making world, cool, "in-the-know" steel players can lean over and whisper to each other, "Have you got a Green Butt yet?"

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Aug 2006 10:59 am

Topic: Tone bars - everything you know is wrong.

Jim, believe it or not, some of the stuff you're just "discovering" is stuff a lot of us have known for decades.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Aug 2006 11:24 am

Donny - yep, I know. but "conventional wisdom" like:

"a steel guitar just doesn't look right unless its being played with a shiny steel bar"

..and related things come up so often that it's not "normal" for these things to be used. There's no logical reason, though.

Bobby, here's the exact wording you used:

"Jim Sliff, there's no way that a plexiglass bar will sound like a steel bar. I use a plexiglass bar sometimes for its unique sound. If they really sound the same to you, your amp settings are obscuring your tone."

Through my Vibroverb, Holland, or Pro Reverb...and I do have half a clue how to set amps, having serviced them for 35 year...the acrylic (which many would call plexi), Dunlops and Twister are indistiguishable. There's no "special effect". Forget the volume pedal and use guitar=>cord=>amp, play a note, let it ring....or slide around a bit. Mayb some steel players could tell a minute difference (or maybe there's more difference if you have your amp settings dialed in for icepick treble, as so often heard on steel) , but I've fooled recording engineers and guitarists so far. So unless your audience is made up of 100% steel players, you can probably enjoy the feel of a lighter, bigger bar...and nobody will know.

Well, Calvin will if he's looking.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 6 Aug 2006 1:27 pm

Sorry Mike...Alberts #1 is not THE first one made, nor is it the 1st of the production run.

Ed, I'm probably mistaken, (after all, it was 9 years ago) but I seem to recall that Albert's bar had the number one etched in it.

As far as I remember though, there was no such etching in the hard boiled egg he used.

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ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 6 Aug 2006 3:21 pm

Mike...you are right that he has a bar with #1 on it...but it was not the first, second, or even one of the first 10 made...he just asked for his to have #1 on it before we started making the production lot.

One of these days, someone will switch his hard boiled egg for a raw one!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Aug 2006 4:05 pm

"Jim Sliff, there's no way that a plexiglass bar will sound like a steel bar. I use a plexiglass bar sometimes for its unique sound. If they really sound the same to you, your amp settings are obscuring your tone."

I stand by that quote. I never said that your plexi/acrylic bar "can't allow a steel guitar to sound right".

Different bars produce different tones. Why have more than one bar if they all sound the same to you? I use my plexiglass bar fairly often, and it always sounds "right" to me!

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Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 6 Aug 2006 4:35 pm

I've fooled recording engineers and guitarists so far

I have no doubt about this, but my own experience is that this doesn't matter. The subtleties of tone and feel that determine our own personal "sound" often cannot be heard by an outside ear, and cannot be picked up in the recording process. This does not mean the differences are not real, only that they are difficult to measure. One should never mistake measurement for reality

As an example, when playing six-string, I can actually feel my strings changing tension, hardness, and other properties depending on which distorition I have engaged. Now the strings are not actually changing, but the feedback mechanism between my ears and fingers definitely is. Psycho-acoustics is a facinating and very complex field.

Having said this, between the three bars I own, the one with the greatest weight and roundness gives the most sustain.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 6 Aug 2006 4:42 pm

Last night for the first set I used my old Ernie Ball bar, by mistake. I thought something was different, but not the tone the weight of the bar is what made me realize I was using the wrong bar.I use a B.J.S. 15/16 bar most of the time. One hour of playing with the wrong bar and the bass player never turned to me and said I was using the wrong bar! The owner never noticed or the 200 people never noticed AND I never noticed! MY POINT--does it really make a difference what bar we use? Is it super hearing steel players that can hear the difference? I'm keeping my old bar--no one can ever tell the difference. Maybe you can only hear the difference when you play alone in the bedroom

Joe www.willowcreekband.com [This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 06 August 2006 at 05:45 PM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 6 Aug 2006 5:11 pm

I play a beautiful 12-string stainless steel bar made for me by my good freind, steeler, and machinist, Sam Gibson. No chrome to wear off, and milled as smooth as a babie's a..

It has plenty of weight and floats right along on my Williams U-12.

You guys are truly splitting hairs, here.

C'mon - do not fret - just play the damn steel.

Albert Svenddal · Post by **Albert Svenddal** » 6 Aug 2006 5:29 pm

Ed and Mike. You are right. My Zirc bar has #001 stamped on it. I knew it was not the first bar made because Bill Stafford was the one who showed me his bar first. I do love the bar and use it for most of my faster style playing. However, for slower songs. I used the heavy steel bar which seems to have a little more sustain. But I also use eggs, garbage cans, drinking glasses and straws to play with from time to time. I have even used "raw" eggs also. I get great "chicken pickin" licks on that. Blessings, Albert

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[This message was edited by Albert Svenddal on 06 August 2006 at 06:30 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Aug 2006 6:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
You guys are truly splitting hairs, here.

C'mon - do not fret - just play the damn steel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chip, I'm inclined to agree!

Different bars may produce slightly different sounds to the player, but most others won't notice any big difference. Note that the bars Jim used and has pictured are all inordinately large. Once the mass and diameter of the bar reaches a certain point, it functions like most any other bar. (Try a 1/2" steel bar and a 1/2" plexi bar, and the differences are more obvious.) Some slide guitarists still favor the old glass "Coricidin bottle" as a slide, and even though it's fairly light and hollow, it still offers considerable sustain. Many months ago, I got involved in a discussion here about the sound differences between a 7/8" bar and a 15/16" bar. Some players insisted that the larger bar made a distinct difference in the sound. I remain unconvinced, and I maintained that the audible differences were insignificant unless you have that "1 in 10,000 ear" like Buddy Emmons probably does.

Though I have a few plastic and even wood bars (all smaller than those pictured), when I want a really low-sustain sound like a banjo or koto, I simply use a "Sharpie" marker, or a "Flair" felt-tip pen!

You see, it's only the sound that interests me. "Pretty" tone bars, be they chrome, plexi, glass, white or black, jeweled or initialed, don't impress me in the least.