push pull compared to all pull

[Ken Barrett]

is push pull more trouble and all pull trouble free? does push pull have trouble staying in tune? Does one sound better than the other?


Sincerely, Ken.

[Larry Ray Miller]

I have a friend that has a Emmons pp, and a Emmons Legrand all pull. I prefer the Legrand. He likes the pp. He took it to Bryan Adams (deceased). Bryan tuned the pedals, and put something like locktite on the pedal adjusters. He just tunes open and never touches the end. The pedals stay in tune after several years. I would not be able to tune one that was not set up like this.

[john buffington]

I have both, tone wise the p/p for my ears is definitely hands down, a cut above of the all-pull. When a p/p is adjusted and tuned properly, it plays in tune, stays in tune. The all-pull sounds good and sometimes requires a touch up. There is "something about an Emmons Push/Pull" that just has that tone IMO!

[richard burton]

My push-pull tuning is rock solid.

It's got quite a good tone, too, imho

listen here

[Ken Barrett]

Is the Emmons the only PP Pedal Steel guitar that stays in tune or are there other brands?

[Tony Prior]

Ken its a great qreat question coming from a new player and one that has been discussed numerous times and will continue to be discussed, numerous times.

Tone is subjective, some folks hear things on a P Pull that they don't hear on an All Pull. The majority of P Pull players will say that the tone is different, not necessarily better, but maybe different. I own both, Emmons P Pull and Emmons All Pull. Yes , I hear things ( resonance ) sweet Spots , on the P Pull that I don't hear on the All Pull. The late great Bobbe Seymour would say, Push Pulls sound great, but not all of them. They are not all equal. Just like not all ALL PULLS are equal. Steel guitars in general are not equal, just like Telecasters and Stratocasters are not equal. But they all look the same.

Set-up, again controversial. If someone is mechanically inclined, the Push Pull is no big deal. It requires a more advanced understanding of how the system is "put together" than the much simpler ALL PULL design. But keep in mind that there are also many ALL PULL owners who don't quite understand how the ALL PULL system works either. So it's not just one vs the other , the human element also comes into play. My opinion is that an average person with mechanical ability would understand the ALL PULL design but maybe not understand the Push Pull design.

Is one more trouble free or stay in tune better than the other ?

My take is NO. If any Pedal Steel is set up appropriately and has the proper string gauges , is maintained etc, they are each very consistent. If a Steel is not consistent or holding tune, there is something amiss.

Some would argue that the P PUll holds tune better. Perhaps, but in my personal experience, both are consistent.

If any Steel guitar or 6 string guitar does not hold tune, its not playable. Something is wrong. Its got nothing to do with what type of system it is. Something is wrong and it needs "fixin".

My feeling is that we allow our Steels, any of them, to be used regularly for a very long time without any attention, other than maybe changing strings. Then something goes astray and we now are miffed.

Many times something as simple as a loose set screw or a clip has come loose, a worn part, grime, etc... from regular use, and now the instrument may not return to pitch, reach pitch, hold tune (single string)etc. This can be any Instrument . This is a mechanical Instrument and every now and then a "LOOK AND SEE examination" should take place.

My own personal opinion is that the ALL PULL systems are much easier to make changes to, add levers to, swap pulls around , experiment with etc. It takes minutes, if you don't like what you did, it takes minutes to put it back the way it was.

They all have nuances, some less than others. I think the general consensus would be that the ALL PULL system is easier to understand and maintain, but certainly, when each are setup properly, one is not better than the other when it comes to tuning stability or play-ability.

One last thing, other than the PROMAT Push Pulls, all of the Push Pulls are from the 80's going backwards to the 60's. Emmons Instruments. So we are looking at Instruments that are 30 years old or MUCH older and then comparing them mechanically to Instruments ( all pulls) that may be brand new . Not really a fair comparison.

I own a 1995 Emmons Legrande II , D10 / 8+6. I now play this guitar pretty much every gig. I also own and practice on an 81 Emmons Push Pull, 8+4. A wonderful guitar. The only reason I don't bring this one out regularly is because the Legrande has a pull ( lower 5 and 6 ) I added to knee lever #5 while the Push Pull doesn't have a #5 knee lever !

[Mike Perlowin]

Push pulls can't do splits. Some people don't care, but I do. For me, that's a deal breaker.

[John Goux]

Ken, if you do a search you will find miles of discussions on this subject.

I have both PP and AP steels.
Here is my take.

The advantages of PP:
The tone and self generating sustain.
The intonation of raises and lowers, once set, almost never moves.
The guitars still need to be tuned, but not as much as AP.
Cabinet drop is almost non existent

The disadvantage of PP:
There are limitations to your coped possibilities.
Changing your coped is either time consuming or expensive.
They are heavier than the modern light guitars.
Talented repairmen are few and far between.
They don’t make them anymore.

Advantages of All Pull:
Coped possibilities are endless
Changing setups is easier and less expensive
The tone of All Pull is very good, some guitars close to PP, but definitely good enough when you consider all the other variables on a gig and technique
They can be lighter.

Disadvantages of All Pull:
They go out of tune more often.
Cabinet drop is an issue with zero pedals and 12 strings
The intonation can drift and need to be checked and reset even on gigs.
If you get a great PP, your AP guitars will seem be less impressive sounding

Summary:
If you want a coped other than standard Emmons, AP guitars are the ticket.
If you can’t hear the difference in Push Pull tone, then AP is the way to go.
If you get a great PP, and are enamored with the sound, there is nothing better.
If solid intonation is a primary concern, then PP is the way to go.

Cheers, John

[Dave Campbell]

my experience is aligned pretty closely to the previous posters. i tune the open strings about as often on an all pull as compared to a push pull, but i only really have to pay any attention to tuning the stops after a string change, and even then not much.

[Jack Hanson]

[Donny Hinson]

I look at it this way...what you like is what you like. It's like trying to convince a Ford guy that a Chevy is also a great car - you're talking to a brick wall. All this one-upmanship stuff with players constantly bragging about what they have and what someone else has (or plays) gets old...very old. Wanna know what's really important? It's that thing between the seat and the steel...the player! Players get hired and fired based on how they act and what they can do, not what they happen to be carrying in and out of the gig. (And yes, I do own a p/p.)

Learn to tune.
Learn to play.
Learn to get along.

That's it in a nutshell.

(And yes, I do own a p/p.)

[Roger Rettig]

Yes, Donny.

[Cartwright Thompson]

Amen Donny....and I’m a dyed in the wool push pull guy!

[Damir Besic]

Is the Emmons the only PP Pedal Steel guitar that stays in tune or are there other brands?

[J R Rose]

Damir can explain it to you. This Pro Mat is a P/P and you will be amazed at how good they sound. J.R. Rose

[Ron Pruter]

Rich Burton. Great tone on that Emmons. Like Mike, no splits is a deal breaker for me also. RP

[Eric Philippsen]

I’ve had, I dunno, maybe 15-20 push-pulls. Lots of all-pulls. My experience over the decades is that push-pulls hold their tuning incredibly well. Set it and forget it. I mean, I will often use a p/p that’s been stored for a while. I’ll pull it out of its case, tweak it a bit at the key head, and then find that no adjustments are needed at the changer. None. Not usually so with all-pulls.

[Damir Besic]

Damir can explain it to you. This Pro Mat is a P/P and you will be amazed at how good they sound. J.R. Rose

Henry would probably be a much better choice for explaining push pulls then me lol

[Bill Terry]

Learn to tune.
Learn to play.

... and learn to play in tune.