The Steel Guitar Forum

Hi all
I came across an old topic on the forum discussing what changes to have on an extended E9 low E recently. Since I set it up, Ive always had all 3 E’s lowering a semitone on LKR and the semi raise on LKL apart from the low E which goes to C#. I’ve also got a 0 pedal which lifts the top and bottom E’s a tone. Someone suggested not doing the semitone drop on LKR to give a nice major 7th. They are right, it is nice but I found myself missing the useful note when playing minors or 7ths with the lever engaged. So how to get both?

The solution came in a light bulb moment when I realised that in the quantum world of pedal steel, 2 - 1 does not have to equal 1. As I’m using an extra rod to tune the 0 pedal and LKR split, all I had to do was use the lever to totally cancel the 0 raise and then tune the lever with the extra rod to drop as normal when on its own. Thought I’d post in case anyone else is interested.
Cheers
Calum

I lower my string 12 E to C# on zero pedal next to pedal A. A + Zero = low root C#m. Nice change. Stole the idea from Rick Schmidt. We also raise str 12 to F with the others, but through split rods lowering the E to C# still leaves the mid and high E's at F, so you have major or minor with A + F, and still have that low root. Hope that makes sense!

Thanks John, that makes perfect sense. Just tried it and its lovely. Instant Phrygian Dominant thing going on there. Only bad thing is now I want that change as well as all the others......
Cheers

I played Extended E9th for over 30 years. I tried a bunch of things over the first decade, but what I settled on was very simple and served my purposes well:

F lever also lowered 12 to C#
C pedal also lowered 12 to D

I usually didn't have any notes between 12 E and 11 G#. It didn't seem to matter on stage, as I used those strings mostly for rhythmic background as needed. I lowered 11 G# to G for a while, but it was a change I rarely used.

Thanks for the tip! I love the low E as a drone on E9th but having a boo-wah and a low dominant 7th really adds a lot. Hoping I have a few more cranks and pull rods left in the basement.

Like b0b and John, I lower the lowest E--string 12--to C#. But I do it on the E to F lever.

Great for the once-a-night boo-wah effect but on fret 1 it also gives a nice low D a whole tone below guitarists' low E. It sort of shakes them up when you play it.

Chris

C pedal lowering 12 E to D makes a great D power chord - B+C pedals on strings 12, 11, 9. Smoke On The Water!

10 string application....F lever lowers low E (10) to C#, A pedal lowers B (9) to A....full chords ..0 pedal raises (9) to C# for that old rockin guitar lick...

John McClung, about the Rick Schmidt change,
12 E to C# and 9 D to D#. C#m11.
Do your know of a way to have the option to cancel the String 12 lower, and have that nice Emaj7, with the C#min11 option still available? On the zero pedal.
John

Thanks for the input folks. I don’t know if there’s anyone else in this part of the world on Ext E9 so its good to see what others are up to. I cant imagine only having 10 strings now!
Bob, I fitted your C pedal suggestion this morning and its great. I love being able to alternate the E bass with D. It might actually get me using the C pedal more as it’s my least used.
On a slight tangent, I’ve always found it really easy to accidentally bend the low E by pressing too hard and I prefer not having a hand rest. So I recently switched from a .56 to a .62 which is much more solid and sounds mighty. Had to machine a bridge roller to get clearance on the B on fret 1 but its well worth the effort.
Calum

Thanks, Calum. I work with the 9th string D as the root quite often, so putting a low D on the C pedal made a lot of sense to me. Even though I do use the F lever a lot, I found myself using the D note more often than the C# on the 12th string.

John Goux wrote:John McClung, about the Rick Schmidt change,
12 E to C# and 9 D to D#. C#m11.
Do your know of a way to have the option to cancel the String 12 lower, and have that nice Emaj7, with the C#min11 option still available? On the zero pedal.
John

I don't. That lower requires you have the note going a bit lower than the desired C#, then use a raise rod to bring it back up to pitch. That allows the change to stay put and not get wrecked when the F lever raises string 12 E to F.

I get a lovely Emaj7 add6 with just my E lever because it lowers string 9 D>C# as well as Es to D#. Really opens up and makes easy some pentatonic scales.

Another useful change on the low E is to raise it a full tone to F# with the same lever that lowers your E's. It's what I do. This way you get a low 5th note when you're playing in the Bb position. Great for chords and rhythm.

Another bonus of this change is the beautiful timbre of the harmonized scale you can play on the low E/F# raise and sixth string G# with B pedal. It's the same exact scale and the same fret positions as the BC pedal scale but you use the E-lower lever instead of the C pedal together with the B pedal. The low wound E string and higher plain G# string sounds really amazing when in harmony. Best sounding harmonized scale if I had to pick just one (The second-best sounding would be the harmonized scale on string 5-A pedal/string 8-E-lower lever).

b0b, I'm glad you mentioned getting rid of the low G# string to decrease the "muddiness" of the strummed chords played on the low strings. I removed my low G# string probably based on your idea from one of your other posts when I was researching copedents some years back. I have kept that string off since then.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:Another useful change on the low E is to raise it a full tone to F# with the same lever that lowers your E's.

For me it works better on the lever that lowers D# and D. It's a nice F#m7 or B7.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:b0b, I'm glad you mentioned getting rid of the low G# string to decrease the "muddiness" of the strummed chords played on the low strings. I removed my low G# string probably based on your idea from one of your other posts when I was researching copedents some years back. I have kept that string off since then.

Did I really say that? I use that string 11 (G#) a lot. For a while I played the 10-string Sacred Steel tuning without a low G#, but I've always had it on my 12-string Extended E9th guitars.

bOb, must have been the sacred steel one that you mentioned, because that's the one I play, but with an added eleventh string low B note (I converted a 12 string guitar)

Earnest, do you use the low E-to-F# change with your lever in conjuction with the E lower lever much? If you do, it may be more efficient to have them on the same lever like me, then you could use your other knee to do other stuff.
Also, do you ever use the E's lowered change with the low E kept as is? In what ways? I guess you can get a major 9 cord with the root note on the low E. 9 chords are nice occasionally but I'm not big into that sound at this time.

I will have to add a split to my guitar just like the original poster C.D. Maclean suggested (Thanks!)to be able to get this low E note to stay unchanged while I engage my E lower lever to get the major 9 chord. The split will be with the Low E whole-tone lower that I have on pedal 4 (another great no pedals position blues change to have). Right now, when I lower the low E a whole tone with the pedal and raise it a whole tone with the E lever, they do not cancel out exactly and the note sounds off. Not sure if it's worth the effort of adding the split but I will try it. More options is better.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:Earnest, do you use the low E-to-F# change with your lever in conjuction with the E lower lever much?

Not much but sometimes. I like those changes independent of each other.

Jacek Jakubek wrote:Also, do you ever use the E's lowered change with the low E kept as is? In what ways? I guess you can get a major 9 cord with the root note on the low E.

Yes. E maj7, or B7/E, etc.

Thanks, Earnest.
I meant to say Emaj7 and not Maj9 in my post above. Will need to install that split rod sometime soon and see how it works. This is great, I have not made changes to my copedent in years and thought I was done. To stumble upon some ideas to improve it even more is awesome.

Chris Brooks wrote:Like b0b and John, I lower the lowest E--string 12--to C#. But I do it on the E to F lever.

Great for the once-a-night boo-wah effect but on fret 1 it also gives a nice low D a whole tone below guitarists' low E. It sort of shakes them up when you play it.

Chris

That's where I used to have it, but having low end majors and minors won me over, so I have the best of both worlds.

I use a 64 gauge string on low E.
Lower my low E to C# on Pedal 1 and E to Low Bass B on LKV.
I also raise it to F on Pedal 5 and also by feel stop on LKL and to F# on Pedal 7.

Chris, interesting setup. The low E down to B: That must sound like a growling dive-bomb. I once tried having a similar growling sound by attaching a thin metal cable to the lower scissor finger on the changer for the low E string, running the cable to a pulley underneath the guitar, then bringing it back to the changer where the cable would stick out and you could pull it. Pulling the cable gave you a lower without any limits, A growling dive bomb, sort of like starting a lawn mower or chainsaw. I eventually removed this jig because I wasn't using it much and wanted to simplify my setup. Also it was hard to move the right hand fast enough to the cable after picking a string. You got me wanting to re-visit this idea and try it again, maybe find a way to make it more practical.

Update: Just finished installing a split rod for the low E string on one of my guitars and after several tries of getting the pulls timed correctly, it works! I think it's not exactly the same thing as the original poster described but thanks anyway! I got a really cool open position Maj7 chord now without needing any additional pedals/levers. A Freebie!

Yes Jacek, It sounds huge. I really like it as an to give chords more depth along with the low C# drop on P1 for those C6 like voicing. The 64 gauge works best on the low E to keep the string from flabbing out while dropped.

How are you folks getting your feel stops for E-D#-D and E-F-F# etc?
Is it engaging a second string, or do you have feel stop mechanisms?
Do you feel like you have confidence in the half steps, or do you ever overshoot the pitch?

Chris Johnson that is a great and innovative coped. I enjoyed studying what you created. Clever to move the C# to D automatically in pedals down. While rocking A pedal, do you get any pitch anomalies from that moving D?

I’d love to hear what you are doing with this setup. Have you posted any videos?
John

I also have the low E to F# on a lever with the Str 2 and Str 9 lowers, my RKR.
Got the idea from Earnest.
I love having that change for the E/F# type chords, and to play low register pentatonic lines in AB pedals down. In Ext E9.
The steel that has that change, it has made it hard to push the lever, and the light instrument wants to slide around rather than lower.
If I give up that change, it would be only to make the lever easier.
John