Where are all the Good Universal Guitars

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

OK.

I know I'm a different kind of player. I'm older, with a bad back, and not enough energy to play all night and schlep my equipment around before and after a gig. So I decided early on a Uni was the way to go. And not just a Uni but an S-12 Uni. Jeff Newman told me and I agree that if you play an SD-12 Uni you may as well play a D-10. In fact I've only sat under a D-10 like maybe 2 or 3 times in my life. But I still like to play both E9 and C6. E9 because it's the "Kroger neck (John Huey)" and C6 because swing and jazz is just to much fun. I have a nice 1982 Zum SD-12 Uni. It has tone to the bone and plays like butter but I find I prefer playing my Carter S-12 more at rehearsal and on gigs. Ergonomically it works for me much better than the Zum, It takes up less stage real estate, less room in the car, it's less weight, and easier to move around when set up. By the way both of them are in split cases.

Why is there no love for the S-12 Uni?

Or maybe there is and that's why they rarely come up for sale on the forum. I see quite a few older MSA's and occasionally a Carter or maybe even a rare Williams that pops up now and then. Almost all of them SD-12. Even more rare than anything is a modern MSA, Infinity or heavens forbid you may see a Mullen. Excel's are more an engineering marvel than a guitar. I know there were not a lot of S-12's built compared to S-10's or D-10's. And it seems from what I've seen more SD-12's than S-12's.

Where are all the used S-12's? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Ollin,
I notice if I select "Last 6 Months" and do a Forum Search in the "Steels For Sale" section using various terms like S12U, Universal, etc, there are several Uni's that pop up for sale.

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Hey Pete,

Yea they're there. I just don't see as many as I see D-10, S-10 or SD-10. As I said I see some older guitars but not many late model guitars. A couple of Williams maybe. Or maybe it's just because I'm actively looking right now.

I'm seriously considering buying a new S-12 but I cringe at the sticker shock and drop in value the minute I take possession. Could be I'm just old and cranky too.
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Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields

David Decker · From: Canton, Ohio, USA

Call Hummingbird Music, Sugarcreek, Ohio. They usually have some U-12 in stock. 330-852-2841

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

One of the problems with used Universal 12 strings is.
Universal tuning should have 7-8 pedals and 3 or 4 hole raise and lower changer.
I have a new MSA S-12 in split cases with a couple of compensators I wanted.
After I added the 4 hole changer and case upgrade polished undercarriage. Most brands were close in price.
These items came stock included in the price with MSA.
Many cheap deals on used 12 strings are for two hole raise and lowers 3,4,5, pedals. Okay for extended E9th.

A new guitar set up at the factory the way you want it is a joy to play and for me worth making some payments.
There are many payment options out there for zero interest etc.
I would have considered a Mullen but they only listed SD12s.
Now I have quick change pickups, LED fretboard, custom tone control just the way I like it. Easy to adjust on the fly pedals and Levers.
MSAs have interchangeable pedal rods that fit any position or pedal. Stays in tune like dream.
The quality of workmanship and service at MSA is up with the best in the business.
After owning different PSGs and having different guitars Emmons Push Pull and Carter they were very different and hard to go back and forth for me.
After playing this MSA for a year I knew this was the guitar for me and ordered another matching one.
Very Happy now Thanks MSA.

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

S12s do appear to be a minority instrument, and I daresay the people who buy them keep them. Once you buy into the philosophy there's no temptation to go back.

I have two and although my heirs will doubtless put them up for sale, I won't.

It's true what Ken says about changers. The Excel is streets ahead with 7 up, 4 down. I love my Williams too, but I had to accept compromises.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Ian said:

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I have been playing the same Sierra for 20+ years.
In the name of research, I am considering a new Uni, and that Excel 7-raise 4-lower Changer sounds like a great innovation to me, for Uni!

john buffington · From: Owasso OK - USA

I have Uni-12 Mullen that is built on a 3/4 body. 7/5 Jeff Newman setup and is not a back breaker. I personally prefer the 3/4 body because it takes up less stage space, and obviously less weight than the SD-12 models, just my person preference. Sent back to the Mullen gang and had a "total go through" plays like a new one now.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I have a GFI keyless S12. I see no reason for a larger body.
However, I also have an old Sho-Bud Perm D10. It is very heavy.
I use the axe that fits the gig.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Danelectro, Evans, Fender, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If you're hooked on something less popular, your choices of finding what you want are always more limited. That's not only true of steels, but of cars, houses, and just about everything else too. Couple that with the fact that anything simple or basic is not what most people want nowadays, and you have yet another big reason.

Almost everyone wants or buys more than they need. It's an ego thing, I guess, and nobody is more guilty of this than musicians. Mr. Green

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I've been playing my U-12 ZumSteel since I bought it new in 2003. It does what I want it to, plays like silk and sounds fantastic. Also, it's not a back breaker, I see no reason, ever, to sell it or get another one. The only time you'll see it for sale is when I croak.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I've been playing my

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

There was a Millennium Uni listed just a week ago asking for offers. He got lambasted and pulled the ad. If I were looking for a Uni I could carry, I would contact him and make a reasonable offer. You've got a good reference point in that a pristine late-model M3 D-10 was listed right after it, and the ad got pulled in part do to lack of interest despite a low price IMO - $4300. I'd find out what model that M-Uni was, and make a reasonable offer. I've owned Zums (Uni and D-10) - great guitars. But I'll take the Millie.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

In Dec. 2017 I put my Heavy MSA S10 under the bed and started the adventure with a GFI Ultra S12U.
I have it set up with Jeff Newman's tuning.
At 49 lb. in the case, And me 75 years old it is easier to move and handle.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Hey Ollin, how are you?

I picked up a Zum S12 a couple of years ago, finally had Lynn Stafford switch it to my copedent for extended E9, and now trying to figure out if I like it enough to keep. Sounds great, but knee levers don't fit as comfortably as my Mullen D12, and I kind of miss having that back neck or pad. Also have an SD12 Rittenberry to get set up and try next, see how that fits me.

Before I found these I was in the hunt for a Zum SD12. Let me know if you're every turning loose of yours, might even consider trading my Zum S12.
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Hi John,

I know we emailed several times about this. My Zum is definitely a players grade guitar. Being over 30 years old that's to be expected. I have been trying to get the Zum fully restored by Billy Knowles. He is only a short drive from my house. But it's the same old story, When he has the time I don't have the money and vice versa.

I'm working in two bands so I really need to have a guitar at the house and one in the case by the door. I'm looking for a 3rd Uni so I can take the Zum to Billy and leave it for a few months. If I ever get it restored I'll considering letting it go. Even if it is shiny and all pretty looking, it's just hard for me to reach everything.
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Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields

Jimmy Gibson · From: Cornwall, England

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Here’s a nice uni Franklin light as a feather plays like butter an sounds heavenly.

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Johnie if that guitar had my copedent and I had the winning lottery ticket it would be mine.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields

John LeMaster · From: North Florida

Recently acquired this one.

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Magnum D10, Emmons D10 push-pull

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

On reflection, I wonder if there might some sort of quiet revolution going on, with people trying the uni and deciding to stick without making a big deal out of it.

This is based on nothing but a feeling that although the pedal steel has always been a versatile instrument, the days of out-and-out country-vs-swing as exemplified by the D10 may be giving way to a more fluid approach. Although I tend to tackle a song in one "mode" or the other, I'm ever more conscious of the points of correspondence between the two, and I tend to drift as I know other folks do too.

Anderson and Newman were visionary in that what they saw, we can only see now they're gone.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I have seen several Universals sell quickly here on the Forum for what I would consider win-win prices.
I would have loved to have that Deckly 7x4 that just sold for $1500!

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Here is a nice Carter S12U with a reasonable asking price.
Great color.
Fully loaded Day Setup 7x7 Copedant, with Knee Levers similar to a D10 (I love the guys pedal/lever function chart!)
4-Raise, 2-Lower changer. It doesn't have Split-screws, but you could put Split-rods in the top changer-finger hole.
Change-Lock looks factory installed.
I hope to go take a look at it soon (about an hour away) but someone here should buy it if you want a Uni!
https://salem.craigslist.org/msg/d/dallas-carter-steel-guitar/6878975862.html

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