| Author |
Topic: “New” Emmons Push Pull not returning string 6 to start |
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2019 3:27 pm |
|
Just got the guitar today and it’s stunning and I fully realize I’m out of my depth with this guitar but I’m determined. This realization was confirmed when I was tuning up and realized that string 6 isn’t raising. Everything moves but there’s too much slack in the wire hook so it never puts enough pressure on the finger to move it. I took a video but am not sure if I need to post on YouTube and then post a link? Any suggestions are welcome!
Thanks,
Eric
EDIT: to correct my original post, the B pedal will raise the 6 string but it won’t return to neutral. I’ll post more pics and/or videos after work. May need to find a push pull person near KY if there is one if I can’t fix it. Probably not a bad idea to know if someone just in case anyway
Last edited by Eric Davidson on 9 May 2019 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 May 2019 5:50 pm Re: “New” Emmons not raising string 6
|
|
| Eric Davidson wrote: |
| [...] I took a video but am not sure if I need to post on YouTube and then post a link? |
Yes, post your video on Youtube first, and then post a link to it here. |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2019 6:01 pm Re: “New” Emmons not raising string 6
|
|
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Eric Davidson wrote: |
| [...] I took a video but am not sure if I need to post on YouTube and then post a link? |
Yes, post your video on Youtube first, and then post a link to it here. |
Will Do, thanks!
I noticed that it seems as if its not returning. For instance, I can push the finger back toward the changer end of the guitar, then press the B pedal down which pulls the finger, but then it doesnt go back to where it started, if that makes sense. 'll post a viseo and link although it may be tomorrow as weve just sold our house and have been packing up and finishing projects. I really timed this well haha |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 8 May 2019 9:22 pm
|
|
Push the finger forwards by hand, then remove the wire hook from the hole in the finger, and try the hook in the next hole down.
If that doesn't work, try the next hole down.
Don't undo or move any collars during this procedure |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 May 2019 11:37 pm Re: “New” Emmons not raising string 6
|
|
| Eric Davidson wrote: |
| I noticed that it seems as if its not returning. For instance, I can push the finger back toward the changer end of the guitar, then press the B pedal down which pulls the finger, but then it doesnt go back to where it started, if that makes sense. |
Makes perfect sense, as that is what the video shows. The raise looks "frozen" in raise, which only makes sense if there is no string on it, it is totally gunked up, or as if there is a no-good "raise-helper spring" involved.
I haven't studied PPs in any depth since in the early -70s, so others will have to chime in on how to solve this. Richard seems to be onto something… |
|
|
|
Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
|
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:25 am
|
|
I think your problem is the 7th string lowering finger has been forced over into the path of the 6th string raise finger. It looks like the 7th string lowering screw is misaligned and forcing the 7th string finger into the 6th string finger.
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:33 am
|
|
| Jerry Jones wrote: |
| I think your problem is the 7th string lowering finger has been forced over into the path of the 6th string raise finger. It looks like the 7th string lowering screw is misaligned and forcing the 7th string finger into the 6th string finger. |
Ah, I saw that but wasn’t sure exactly what I what was looking at. Might it have been bent during shipping or maybe just jostled and can be aligned? I’ll have to look more closely when I get home. Thanks for your input! |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 8:43 am
|
|
| So it looks as though the wire hook will pull the finger to raise, but I have to move it back to starting position by hand. As jerry said, maybe things have somehow shifted over and that’s the issue, but in order to isolate the problem I just wanted to clarify. I may be wrong, but it looks like the finger returns to starting position from lowering position with a return spring; so does the finger return from raising by using the tension of the raised string? Thanks |
|
|
|
Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 10:21 am
|
|
| Yes, string tension returns it. |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 4:20 pm Should I be concerned?
|
|
After lots of looking around it very apparent that the fingers are not evenly spaced and that the finger for string 6 is rubbing on it’s neighbor which appears to be preventing it from returning. Should I be worried? Is it ok to even attempt to play? It shows no obvious signs of damaging in shipping. Anyone ever seen this happen? Is the changer ruined?
 |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:09 pm
|
|
The lowering finger on 7 is definitely the problem. It looks like there is no lower return spring on that string, and the lowering screw is cranked out against the lowering finger so tight that it is pinching it off to one side, creating your binding issue. Back off the lowering tuning screw (the upper row of screws) that should allow the finger to slip back into alignment.
I'm also curious about the spring on the end of the string 2 raise finger. What does it do? It would seem to negate the typical lower on that string. It's cut off in your picture so I can't see where it goes or what it does. |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:12 pm
|
|
| Ian Worley wrote: |
| The lowering finger on 7 is definitely the problem. It looks like there is no lower return spring on that string, and the lowering screw is cranked out against the lowering finger so tight that it is pinching it off to one side, creating your binding issue. Back off the lowering tuning screw (the upper row of screws) that should allow the finger to slip back into alignment. |
Thanks for your reply!!! I’ll give that a shot, being a newbie is there anything specifically I should be cautious of?
Edit: wow, you were absolutely right!!!!! That aligned everything up with just less than a quarter turn! However, I know enough to know I have no idea what step to take next to get things tuned up right, any suggestions would be VERY much appreciated |
|
|
|
Russ Tkac
|
|
|
|
Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:30 pm
|
|
Eric,
As you probably know, on an Emmons push-pull guitar each string sits on a split finger that consists of two parts: one part is the raise-finger and the other part is the lowering-finger.
Here’s my guess:
It may be that the lowering-finger for the 7th string has a lot of wear in its axle-hole, which allows it to “lean” over into the path of the 6th string raise-finger. If this is so, that changer-finger will most likely need to be replaced; unless one of the push-pull gurus (Mike Cass, Lynn Stafford, Billy Knowles, Clem Schmitz, etc.) has some clever trick to repair it (or jury-rig it) in-place.
If this “diagnosis” is correct, I doubt that this problem would have been caused by a shipping problem; judging from what appears to be rust on the changer adjusting screws, the guitar was not well maintained—lack of regular lubrication on the changer axle might have caused premature wear in the axle-hole of the changer-finger.
-Dave |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:34 pm
|
|
| Ian Worley wrote: |
The lowering finger on 7 is definitely the problem. It looks like there is no lower return spring on that string, and the lowering screw is cranked out against the lowering finger so tight that it is pinching it off to one side, creating your binding issue. Back off the lowering tuning screw (the upper row of screws) that should allow the finger to slip back into alignment.
I'm also curious about the spring on the end of the string 2 raise finger. What does it do? It would seem to negate the typical lower on that string. It's cut off in your picture so I can't see where it goes or what it does. |
A pic of the spring to the second string FYI
 |
|
|
|
Eric Davidson
From:
Kentucky, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:41 pm
|
|
| Dave Magram wrote: |
Eric,
As you probably know, on an Emmons push-pull guitar each string sits on a split finger that consists of two parts: one part is the raise-finger and the other part is the lowering-finger.
Here’s my guess:
It may be that the lowering-finger for the 7th string has a lot of wear in its axle-hole, which allows it to “lean†over into the path of the 6th string raise-finger. If this is so, that changer-finger will most likely need to be replaced; unless one of the push-pull gurus (Mike Cass, Lynn Stafford, Billy Knowles, Clem Schmitz, etc.) has some clever trick to repair it (or jury-rig it) in-place.
If this “diagnosis†is correct, I doubt that this problem would have been caused by a shipping problem; judging from what appears to be rust on the changer adjusting screws, the guitar was not well maintained—lack of regular lubrication on the changer axle might have caused premature wear in the axle-hole of the changer-finger.
-Dave |
Hi Dave, thank you for your reply. Ian was correct in that the lowering screw for string 7 was so tight that it was shifting over into the finger for 6. So just to clarify, are you saying that this would not be possible if it were not for significant wear? This is my first push pull and although I’ve played non pedal for a few years, I’m relatively new to pedal steel in general. Thanks again
Eric |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 5:46 pm
|
|
I'm glad that helped. Despite what a lot of folks seem to say here on the forum, the push pull mechanism is very simple. They can be a but finicky and time consuming to fine tune, but the way the mechanism works, how it does what it does is dead simple.
The link above to the "Wilderness Guide" is a good starting place for proper setup, there is a link to a .pdf version a little ways down the thread. If you just flip your guitar over and follow the path of motion of a raise or lower you'll see there are really only a couple of things happening in either direction. Once you understand that, basic setup and adjustment make a lot more sense.
That spring on the string 2 raise finger is not normal. I can see that there is lower push rod on that string as would be typical on E9, but if it is connected to a lever it is not doing anything. That spring effectively negates any motion, raise or lower, on that string. If you want to have the typical D (or D/C#) lower on 2, you'll need to remove that spring. Hard to know what the intent was, why it was put there. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Anyway, good luck, have fun! |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 6:02 pm
|
|
| Eric Davidson wrote: |
| Dave Magram wrote: |
| ...It may be that the lowering-finger for the 7th string has a lot of wear in its axle-hole, which allows it to “lean†over into the path of the 6th string raise-finger... |
...are you saying that this would not be possible if it were not for significant wear? |
It's possible but not likely an issue here. There are shim washers between the finger sets, they are meant to isolate the fingers. When set up properly they leave very little space overall for lateral movement on the axle so that the fingers can't twist. The whole changer axle assembly is meant to be shimmed as tight as possible without creating any binding or restriction of movement in the fingers. The result is they don't/won't flex around much unless a non-concentric force is applied as was the case here.
The lowering fingers are only ~1/16" thick so they can flex. In this case the rotation of the screw tip rolled the lowering finger over to one side once it reached it's firm stop against the body. The 1/4 turn you applied just released the unwanted lateral force. |
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 9 May 2019 6:30 pm
|
|
That extra spring on string 2 is used to set up a feel half-stop... pretty common.
Extra spring pulls raise finger against cabinet. Push rod has no collar and pushes through the lowering finger to the raise finger rest screw. The final C# is set with the lowering finger stop screw.
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 10:11 pm
|
|
| Eric Davidson wrote: |
Hi Dave, thank you for your reply. Ian was correct in that the lowering screw for string 7 was so tight that it was shifting over into the finger for 6. So just to clarify, are you saying that this would not be possible if it were not for significant wear? This is my first push pull and although I’ve played non pedal for a few years, I’m relatively new to pedal steel in general. Thanks again
Eric |
I am certainly no push-pull expert like those guys I mentioned in my previous post. However, I've had one for a long time and I know how to maintain it, and keep it working well--it plays like butter.
The reason I chimed in is I bought my Emmons push-pull (used) when it was 4 or 5 years old. Not long after I bought it, I noticed that the C6 10th raise-finger would lean over an 1/8" or so and slip out of line with the adjusting screw, looking very similar to yours.
I reckoned that the previous owner hadn't lubricated the changer, which caused premature wear in the axle-hole of the raise finger.
Instead of taking the changer apart (a big job) and replacing the finger, I did a temporary fix by moving the bellcrank for that raise about a 1/4" towards the center of the guitar, so that the raise rod would tend to pull the raise-finger back in line with its adjusting screw in the lowering-finger--and used a small loop of wire around the 10th string raise hook and the 9th string raise hook to "encourage" the 10th string raise finger to rotate at a 90-degree angle to the axle.
To prevent further wear on the changer fingers, I thoroughly lubricated the changer, and always lubricate it at least once a year since then.
I figured that some day, I'd replace the worn finger. Meanwhile, that "temporary fix" has been working fine for many years! (Someday, I will fix it properly, I swear.)
I am not recommending this "jury-rigging" method, just explaining why I suspect too much wear in the axle-hole of your changer-finger may be causing the problem. 
-Dave |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 9 May 2019 10:21 pm
|
|
Aha! That's really interesting Jerry, thanks. I've never seen it done like that but it's a great idea. The extra spring holds the open D#, the normal lower return spring engages as the feel stop at D, tuned with the lower "rest" screw, and continues to C#, which is tuned with the upper screw.
I am also raising 2 to E so that wouldn't work for me, but it's a cool solution, doesn't require the extra half stop mechanism. |
|
|
|
Philip Mitrakos
From:
The Beach South East Florida
|
Posted 10 May 2019 6:05 am
|
|
Billy is close to you in north carolina
I would ask if he would let you ship it for repair/set it up for you being your first push pull , and from there you have a better chance of enjoying your guitar
, |
|
|
|
