The Steel Guitar Forum

I just brought my Webb amp with new Eminence Neo speaker to Saigon.
It has the best tone and I'm loving all but one thing! Those electric zingers that shoot from the strings up my finger, ow!

Okay, so I'm no electrician but bet some of you will have an answer?

The amp has a three prong plug but all the outlets here are two prong.
Most of this country is not grounded and electrocution is one of the three main causes of death for children here. Maybe pedal steel players too???

I have one of those adaptors for 3 to 2 prong so it will plug in.
Next I play bare foot, but have on socks and keep my feet on a small rug.

That worked well until yesterday when my sweetheart decided to give me a big wet kiss while I was playing.... OMG, The juice flowed from my strings to my bar, up my left arm and across my shoulder to my neck and lips.... Then whamooo into her lips and all the way down to her bare feet on the tile floor.
Remember that song a few years back, "That Kiss That Kiss"? Well I know it was not my skill at kissing that did it!

So like I said, the entire country goes ungrounded with 220V and 50 cycles AC.
My adaptor has a little copper tab where the third prong would be.
My question; Could I solder a shielded copper electric wire to that tab and then tape the other bare end to the tile floor*? Would that re-direct the jolt?

*Having seen how they build houses here they usually have tiles on cement directly on the ground.

Please only answer if you know your electric stuff well. I'm the only guy in the whole country who plays PSG, so my early passing would be a tragedy for me if no one else.

If it were me, I'd be thinking wireless

Brian Hollands wrote:If it were me, I'd be thinking wireless

Never considered that. You are thinking like the wireless mikes that some singers use these days?
Is there some version of that to connect a guitar or the volume pedal to the amp?
A recommended item maybe?
Thanks for the thought,
Andy

Maybe plug something like this into your volume pedal and amp. There are other brands too.
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www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WL20--b ... simulation

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Thanks Bob,
Seems there is a wide variety of them ranging widely in price.
Not sure what might be best for me.
There is a decent music shop a few blocks from my house so I'll go see if they have some of these? That means I need to get out of my PJ's that I usually have on all day!
Retirement has it's up-side.
Best wishes,
Andy

Andy, I have the same issue here in the PH. I intend to drive a piece of rebar into the ground right by the window close to my amp, and run a wire from that, through the window, and to that ground tab. However, maybe the wireless idea makes sense? I had not thought of that either!

Reading about them, though, there is some latency - and one review I quickly read said "you may not get quite the signal or tonal quality you're use to...."

So I think I will go with the ground post.

Andy, is your Webb 120 volts? And 60hz?

Andy, get yourself a 220 volt 1:1 isolation transformer. The 220v out of it will be much safer to use. As far as grounding, a cold water pipe would be a suitable ground.

Sounds like you need to solder a wire to the 3 prong clip and attach it to a water pipe or run it out to the meter and attach it to the entry ground wire.

May want to try a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Ineruptor) outlet in with a ground wire to the Breaker box, meter box or meter ground rod.

Have not seen a 220 volt system for lights and such since I left France in 1964. Don't remember the lay out of their fuse box.

Be careful, That sounds dangerous.

Hi David & Godfrey,
Yes it is 110 volt 60 cycles and I'm running it through a step down transformer.
It takes 220 volt to 110 volt, but I think it does not effect the cycles. It is rated up to 500 Watts.
That is where I use the 2 prong adaptor because over here everything is just 2 prong, both outlets, plugs and even the transformer.

I have the same on my Peavey 112 without the same problem. It has a cheaper transformer I keep inside it near the speaker that I plug it into with an adaptor. Sometimes a little buzz in the touch, but not too shocking.
On my little Danelectro I had a local shop convert it to 220 and it came stock with just 2 prongs.
Wish I was better educated about electric matters.
Thanks,
Andy

Andy was going to suggest what David mentioned about an isolation transformer.

I think you're using an AVR?

For audio an AVR is known to inject noise. An isolation transformer will clean that up.

Best to inquire with an electrical engineer over there in Saigon to help you. He/she may know what is available in your area for a solution. They know their grid.

The reason why places like Saigon, Philippines as well don't ground is because the area is wet and humid. This was told to me by a family relative who was an electrician working for the power company.

I know the grid here was built with American know-how imported to oversee the construction.

But it's 60hz in the Philippines.

If you want to keep your Webb's transformer running safe, look into a frequency converter/step-up-down transformer being sold there. It will convert 50hz to 60hz and keep your tranny from over heating. These devices are a bit pricey so to prevent sticker shock, I forewarn.

Or maybe the Webb people have a 220vac 50hz transformer for your amp. Saves you from buying most of the other devices to rectify AC.

Just a thought since you shuffle back and forth between Saigon and Conus.

Here’s a list of circumstances making you susceptible to be electrically grounded:

•When two wires at two different voltages come into contact with each other with you touching them at the same time, an electric current passes through your body thereby grounding you.

•When you touch the live (black or colored) wire or other parts of an energized electrical appliance accidentally while another part of your body is in contact with the neutral wire, a current will pass through your body. Then you will get an electric shock.

•When your body is in contact with the live wire while another part is touching a grounded object (e.g. water pipes, street lamp posts, metal posts and metal casing of washing machines), you will also get grounded.

•When you touch a grounded victim (person received the shock), you will also get the shock.

Also look into ground fault interrupters known to your area.

Playing bare foot on tiles is not a good idea as you've found out.

You might want to lay down some wood flooring, make yourself a little stage area out of some nice Vietnamese hardwood to insulate you from the earth.

The case for wireless as B0b mentioned is not unfounded. More and more live performances are wireless everything.

It does isolate one from the instance of shock.

Angus Young's tone is with his wireless system in circuit.

Douglas Schuch said:
So I think I will go with the ground post.

Douglas, ground fault interrupters are now available in the Philippines:



info@meijielectric.ph

And ask in your area or look online for copper clad ground rods. They sell them in different lengths. I think you can get them door-to-door from places like mybenta.

Hi Godfrey,
Now there is a mouthful "Ground fault interrupters" that I doubt I'd manage to translate into Vietnamese... Think it might be just the thing to have because I am also using a transformer with some of my power tools. I'll just print out the picture and let it say a 1000 words for me.

I'm not getting any background noise or other nasty stuff. The amp sounds great.
Jim Webb passed away quite a few years ago. Later Tom Bradshaw took up building Webb amps for a while, but I think he is no longer doing it. I may be wrong about that? He has offered to help me with a remote reverb control if I can figure out which model it is.

We were not touching any wires when we get shocked. It was just the steel and strings.
A shocking situation to say the least.
Andy

Andy, the "noise" referred to is not the audible kind.

It's total harmonic distortion or THD and EMF (electro magnetic fields).

It will also appear on a video monitor/tv screen.

The isolation transformer will rectify this "noise" to where after it's cleaned up, not only will you hear it you can see it on your video screen and the video picture seems to be more clear and stable.

A recording studio or video suite will serve its investment if it rectifies the power coming in from the grid. It results in better audio and video.

AC out of the outlets is "dirty" with so many connections from the entire grid of all sorts of devices, motors creating EMF, (electro magnetic fields) many not polarized on the plugs, plugged in any which way, that video/audio becomes polluted.

And you can't see or hear it off the bat until you see and hear what clean AC is.

Not saying you would need to get this clean but at least you are made aware of the lengths some might want to go to improve their audio and video signals.

One way to test for dirt in AC is take a simple AM radio and tune it to 530khz on the dial. Turn the volume up. Go outside the house and you may hear little noise or static. Go back inside the house and hold it to the walls where the outlets are and you'll hear the "noise."

This is reason why for major concerts, city grid is not used, but crystal controlled gen-sets and an isolation transformer for stepping down from 230vac to 120vac. This and the fact that the city grid could go down during the concert, ruining it for everyone especially the producers who may have to refund tickets.

The band already got paid you can be sure, otherwise they would not be on stage.

I'm sure if you ask around there would be devices to help your shocking situation. Especially if you're using power tools, make sure your transformer has enough watts and is of good quality. You're still plugging into 230 vac to get your 110. Don't want to skimp on power conversion devices. Japan makes quality transformers and AVR's. Read up on your tools and know the power specs on each of them and compare those specs to your transformer's specs.

But the easiest inexpensive first solution is rubber on your feet.




And I keep forgetting the Webb amp company is orphaned.

Hi Godfrey,
Complicated, but think I understand what your getting at.
In fact I did have a lot of hum with my Peavey amp when I first moved into this house.
Tom said I should try using shorter cords to connect the steel and amp.
That worked well and stopped all the hum. Shocks were not a problem with that amp.

I went to that music shop a little while ago. Bought a wireless set for about $125.00 but they saw it was not in stock.
They offered to have their amp guy deliver it and look at the amp.
He came around, speaks fair english and asked me to bring the amp to his shop tomorrow morning where he will check it out. He seems to think there may be something shorting in the circuit and will check for that.
He also managed to get a good shock from it.

They are very nice people there who I've bought a few things in the past. Also the only music shop that has a wide selection of stuff from overseas. Anyway I trust them from past dealings.
Will take it there in the morning.

I think the PI is on the same time zone as Japan?
Best wishes,
Andy

Andy DePaule wrote:seems to think there may be something shorting in the circuit and will check for that.
He also managed to get a good shock from it.

I think the PI is on the same time zone as Japan?
Best wishes,
Andy

Manila is the same time zone as Hongkong. Japan is an hour ahead. Saigon is an hour behind Manila.

For Conus we are ahead by 15 hours from California since it is DST there.

Good you found someone from there and from the music industry who would understand your gear and help you solve some issues as well as offer you some services to ease your day.

May want to keep in mind the original factory transformers in your amp(s) help with your tone. Make sure you try and hang onto those and if they need repair, they can be rewound saving the iron in the transformer rather than swapping them for just any transformer that provides power.

Someone in Vietnam must rewind transformers same as someone must recone speakers.

But a 60hz transformer will heat up in a 50hz area.

GFCI is your best friend in a situation like that. From the net:

GFCI's are an acceptable way to provide protection on ungrounded systems. The GFCI's do not need a ground to be functional. They measure minute differences between the hot and neutral currents. If a certain difference is recognized, it "assumes" a leak I.E. ground fault and trips the circuit.


https://www.amazon.com/s?k=portable+gfc ... tzjijkjm_e

Andy,
Sorry, I'm sleeping while you're awake.
Godfrey's advice on the Isolation Transformer is all good but keep in mind that unless the PA/board/etc. are also powered off of the same transformer you'll still have a shock hazard at every mic. As a horrible singer, this is not a risk I have to consider...

I'm no wireless expert but I think as they get more expensive it mostly just buys you extended range. I gather you're not carrying your steel 100 feet out into the crowd for that killer solo so you don't need an expensive rig. Mostly your concern will be how fast it chews through batteries and how susceptible to RFI it is (Think Spinal Tap playing the Air Force dance). The more expensive ones can have multiple channels to help avoid interference.

Very good idea to have the amp check to make sure there is not fault putting current onto the chassis.
Good luck with it...

Has wireless evolved to the point of creating no tone or dynamics loss? If so I'd like losing all the cords. In a bad ground situation one could still use a GFCI at the amp for when you're adjusting it. I'd really like to know if this is worth a try. My guess is that there is some noticeable loss or more steelers would be cordless.

Back when I started playing, some amps and radios were still "AC/DC", meaning that they had no transformer and the "hot" side of the supply line could be connected to the chassis, depending on how you plugged the cord in. When we got a shock, we'd just turn the plug over, and all was fine. I'd suggest that you get a cheap voltmeter and measure the voltage from your amp chassis or guitar frame to a nearby ground (usually a water pipe). Then you can turn the plug over if you measure a high voltage, and see if it helps. If you can't eliminate the problem, I just wouldn't play; it's not worth it.

DO NOT take chances with this! All it takes is some silly accident, like a patron spilling a drink at your feet, and you could get killed.

If you want to see results of taking such chances, google "musician electrocuted" and you'll discover dozens of musicians and singers who have been killed by using ungrounded equipment.

Scott Denniston wrote:My guess is that there is some noticeable loss or more steelers would be cordless.

I don't think so. The main benefit of wireless is the ability to move around on stage. Steel players don't do that so, minus the shock hazard isolation, all wireless provides is an expensive substitute for a cord. The benefit in this case is the shock hazard mitigation.

For Ken Fox,
The GFCI is of no use here because the entire country is not grounded.
Can't find a three pronged outlet anywhere. They don't even sell them in the electronic supply shops. Even if I were to order there is no grounding in these houses.
I remember that in the US they always drove a long copper rod into the ground at the main junction box, but never here.

Godfrey,
Saigon is an hour behind Manila... That's what I was thinking but was not sure.

Brian,
I bought a wireless unit this afternoon and it sounds really good. If there is any loss I've not got the ear to hear it. Don't like brittle highs and prefer a warmer tone so I'd bet if anything was lost it would be the highs first?
Hadn't thought of hot solos 100 feet from the stage, but could mount wheels on the front legs and start truckin'

Scott,
Yes my thought was it will not only stop me getting zinged, but also do away with those cords that people trip on. Most places we play here have decent PA systems and when at those I leave my amp home and just plug into the PA with a touch of reverb. I do some of the singing, but then I'm playing rhythm guitar on an electric 6 string spanish guitar.

Donny,
This amp is not AC/DC. Right, much as I love music, it's not to die for!

Thanks to everybody for the help in understanding the issues. Not sure I took it all in yet, but will read it all again later. Just got back from a short gig and tired. Off to bed with me.

For Godfrey & Ken,
is GFCI is a replacement for a real ground?
Maybe I'm reading it wrong... Sleepy and too old to stay up late.

By the way Godfrey, I got shocked when my lady landed a big wet kiss on me while I was playing. She must have completed the ground! Was one heck of a kiss that she'll not forget too soon. Our lips were actually stuck together for a moment.

What Donny Hinson. Get the meter and start measuring between pieces of equipment and between equipment and ground. Look for a voltage difference. Drive the ground stake and use it. I am not sure how it is going to look with the meter. I cant believe that both hot and neutral are above ground. Here in the US the hot wire, black is above ground. The neutral white and and ground wire, green are both at ground. They are both tied to the same place in the panel box which is tied to the ground stake. Going wireless or using a GFI is not finding and fixing the problem. A problem using 220 volts is nothing to dismiss. What has your amp guy found. It seems to me that is a good place to start since your other amp doesn't have the problem. Another idea is maybe a neutral connection in your outlet box is corroded. broken, or off.

Bill

Andy DePaule wrote:For Godfrey & Ken,
is GFCI is a replacement for a real ground?
Maybe I'm reading it wrong... Sleepy and too old to stay up late.

By the way Godfrey, I got shocked when my lady landed a big wet kiss on me while I was playing. She must have completed the ground! Was one heck of a kiss that she'll not forget too soon. Our lips were actually stuck together for a moment.

Andy as Ken explained, the GFCI circuit senses minute differences within the circuit.

The GFCI breaker senses when there’s an electrical leak on the circuit.

Think of the AC moving in a loop from your circuit panel, to the amp back to the circuit panel. The moment it detects a ground fault, electricity flowing to the ground in the wrong way, the GFCI breaker trips shutting off power to the entire circuit. It's basically a smart circuit breaker.

You do not need a ground for the GFCI to work as Ken already stated.

On the GFCI device there is a test button to see if it is working.

Get your amp checked, and even the transformer you were using.

Your amp is a used item? You brought a used 120vac 60hz amp most likely used to being played in Conus on a U.S. grid and then plugged it into Saigon power albeit a step down transformer, feeding it 50hz which made the transformer heat up, is your transformer still ok?

Sometimes I've noticed that when something has been used for a while in the country of manufacture and then gets plugged into a foreign grid, gremlins seem to appear and perhaps the amp needs to be checked.

Also does the Webb have the old Fender style ground switch?


Was your lady bare footed on the tiles?

I remember getting shocked back in the 60's playing through Fender amps when my brother playing bass and I playing guitar ganged up on one mic to sing a part, the sides of our faces briefly touched and I saw sparks and felt a shock. And this was on a 120vac grid area run by the Navy. So between his amp and mine something happened as we were connected to them by our guitars.

I don't remember if both amps were connected to the same circuit which is important to prevent ground loops.

Brian mentions this that all gear should be on the same circuit especially if using an isolation transformer.

Donny Hinson said: depending on how you plugged the cord in. When we got a shock, we'd just turn the plug over, and all was fine.

Electricity and the way it is wired in a populated area is sometimes a mystery.

Does Saigon (your house) have several outlet styles or one standard?

What Donny mentioned, is a work around but will only work if the plug that sees the wall outlet is not polarized, meaning one blade of the plug is not larger than the other which is code in America. If your transformer's plug cannot be reversed going into the wall socket then unless you change the plug on the transformer you won't be able to turn the plug around to reverse the flow and hopefully stop the grounding problem. And there is still no guarantee that changing the plug will fix the ground problem.

They make these inline GFCI but it's listed for 120vac so you would need to use this after your step down transformer and to your amp. They use them for power tools.



Bigrock inline GFCI power cord about $45 UL listed. Weather and rain proof.

https://www.bigrocksupply.com/store/p/7 ... x-Box.aspx

Is the AC in your house up to Saigon code? Is it a new dwelling or some years old?

Is it a stand alone house? Duplex? Condo?

Not easy dialing in a solution when there are so many variables to pin down. But it is important to nail it no matter.

Hopefully the music store guy figures it out if he was getting shocked from the amp.

Andy DePaule wrote:For Ken Fox,
The GFCI is of no use here because the entire country is not grounded.

Keep in mind that a GFCI will shut off the circuit when it detects only a few milliamps of leakage. It will save your life, but the amp will repeatedly get cut off anytime there's a problem, so that's a safe solution...but not a practical one.

Have you thought of using a battery-powered amplifier?

Donny,
This amp is not AC/DC. Right, much as I love music, it's not to die for!

Andy, it doesn't have to be an AC/DC amp. Even an amp with a transformer power supply can kill you if it's ungrounded. All it takes is a bad capacitor in the amp, or something getting spilled, or a loose wire.