The Steel Guitar Forum

So this will be a long post. Probably not worth your time.

Recently I have been thinking about getting a new pedal steel guitar, and I’ve looked in all the usual places for companies currently making them, for used guitars on Reverb, eBay and on this forum, and for information about what all these guitars sound like. And then there’s the question: which sound do I like, anyway? So permit me to share my story (and I apologize if you think it’s boring ).

I’ve been a guitar player since my teenage years, long ago. Even though I’m originally Dutch, I’ve always preferred country music, and the best thing about country music, as we all know, is pedal steel, duh. So when I got to the US in 1980, I started looking for a pedal steel. I eventually bought a Dekley student model from Marc Freed’s Music World in San Carlos in I think 1981, but traded it in for a Dekley S12 5/4 soon after, since the student model basically was, well, the less said the better… So I hooked up the S12 (a pre-slimline all-pakkawood model) to my then amp (a Peavey Classic 212) and learned a few things on it, but could never find that sound that we all have in our heads (and I know, we all have a different sound in our heads). So after a few years of that the guitar went back in its case and languished.

A few years ago I set up a band at the place I work for my day job (I’m a particle physicist turned into homeland security scientist, you can find me on LinkedIn if you’re into more boredom). I casually mentioned to my band members I also had a pedal steel, and they told me to bring it on in! Oh, they did not know what havoc they were causing right there! Because now, I first had to do something about that sound that I always wanted. So I changed the single-coil pickup (that was always buzzing) to an Alumitone – and what a lot of work that was! I had to dremel some corners out, and I can tell you pakkawood is … tough! Since the Alumitone can be hooked up two ways I put in a switch so I could have either tone. The higher volume tone is mellower, and the lower volume tone is brighter. Either way, that took care of the buzz. I then bought a Peavey Nashville 112, a Telonics volume pedal, a Peterson strobe tuner, and a Strymon Big-Sky for reverb, since I didn’t like the spring reverb all that much. All of this improved the sound a lot!

But it’s still not the sound in my head.

So I brought the guitar into work and am using it occasionally in the band. I’ve got a little better on it lately, but I’m afraid I’m still a lousy steel player. Sure, my band members say I’m okay, but what do they know? They even think the sound of it is just fine, what am I complaining about?

Still, the quest continues. I have listened to countless YouTube videos, but videos that directly compare two steels with the same setup are rare (although there are some!). These videos have left me more confused than ever! Now I ask myself, what, again, IS that sound that I have in my head? Did I forget what it was??

I decided on a different approach recently: I listen to country music on XM radio and whenever I hear a good song with a great pedal steel track, I try to remember the song and the artist and look up (usually on this forum) who played the pedal steel on that song. Then I go back and try to find out what pedal steel it was played on. To give an example, yesterday I listened to “Livin on Love” by Alan Jackson. And I thought, now that’s a nice sound! The pedal steel I mean. I looked up who it was, and the forum tells me that was, of course, no one other than Paul Franklin himself! And of course I immediately assumed he must have been playing a Franklin guitar on that song. And of course, they don’t make those anymore, and if you want one, they’re north of $10,000 used. I found a live YouTube video of Alan Jackson doing that song, but I’m not sure it was Paul Franklin playing - it didn’t sound the same - but the pedal steel was a Derby (which you can’t really get either). So I’m confused again!

I know, I should go to a store and try out a bunch of steels and see which one I like. Problem: no stores near here. And even the few music stores that have pedal steels that still exist around the country don’t have many to choose from. So perhaps I should go to a pedal steel convention, and I know there’s one in Dallas next weekend. But I have a day job and can’t justify making the trip, at least not this time.

So the question is, for those of you not asleep by now: Does any of this sound familiar? Am I just whining and should I suck it up?

Thanks for listening…

Willy.

It’s like heroin.

I spend a fair share of time thinking about my next pedal steel too. Then I play the one I have and realize I am nowhere near being able to play the sounds it is capable of making, simply because I am not a great player. A shiney new/used pedal steel won’t change that. So,whenever that urge comes along to scan the For Sale section of the forum, I just sit down and practice for a while.

Well said, Fred - I've done enough in the buying department to eliminate all excuses.

I am only a novice pedal steel player (6 years) but I have played trombone and clarinet since childhood (50+ years) and I know that the sound comes from the player. The instrument (unless it's a crock) has little to do with it; the only difference is that one instrument may get your sound with less effort than another. My trombone teacher was generally too lazy to bring his instrument to school, but when he blew mine it sounded just like him. I now own three trombones: one English, one Japanese and one American. I use them for different jobs because they differ technically, but they all sound like me.

I started on a French clarinet and about 30 years later switched to a German one (for reasons not to do with tone but ready for it to be different), but I still got the sound I like.

This may not help you, Willem, in which case I apologise, but I do know that I started to enjoy my own steel playing only after I got my right hand sorted out. It's no good an instrument having a good sustained tone if the attack doesn't deliver - on trombone, clarinet or pedal steel.

The guitar you have is capable of sounding as good as any other pedal steel guitar out there.. Dekley is a very fine guitar and they sound beautiful.. A new steel probably won't get you what you want.. What you want is to sound like the top professional players that you are hearing on the recordings you listen to and enjoy.. The only way to achieve that goal is through relentless practice, lots of playing experience, and sheer determination.

You simply must put the time IN to get the sound OUT.. bob

I agree with what's been said above about it's mostly in the hands.

There are a couple qualifiers as far as set ups go though, to me. Speaking as a guitar player, my first order of clarification would be: If you know you want clear crisp clean tone, don't set yourself up with a Les Paul, a Marshall and a pedal board full of fuzz effects. Most pedal steels will have a good clean tone but different pickups color the tone slightly differently. I'm lucky to be able to test pick ups very easily, and have tried 5 or 6 and settled with the one I like (Alumitone).


So, My focus is then on what happens when the signal leaves the volume pedal. The biggest issue to me here, is Tube or solid state. There are lots and lots of great solid state amps out there. For me however, I have never heard one that really gives me what I want to hear, so it's tubes - preferably, old hand wired tube amps, that are a pain to keep maintained sometimes, but always deliver the goods I'm looking for.

After I find the rig that gives me what I really want, then yes - it is all in the hands.

Ah... Mark Freed's store. Remember it well.

Bob Carlucci wrote:The guitar you have is capable of sounding as good as any other pedal steel guitar out there.. Dekley is a very fine guitar and they sound beautiful.. A new steel probably won't get you what you want.. What you want is to sound like the top professional players that you are hearing on the recordings you listen to and enjoy.. The only way to achieve that goal is through relentless practice, lots of playing experience, and sheer determination.

You simply must put the time IN to get the sound OUT.. bob

I pretty much agree with that statement. Having been doing this for over 50 years, I can tell you that what equipment you use doesn't matter (except maybe, to you). What matters is the player, plain and simple. Let me verify that this way: Of all the thousands and thousands of players who bought Emmons guitars, how many sound like Buddy Emmons? How many have nailed his tone or sound? Of all the thousands of players who bought Sho~Buds, how many sound like Buddy Charleton? How many have his sound down pat? And of all the ones who bought Franklin guitars, How many sound like Paul Franklin? How many can sound that good and get his tone on the simplest of tunes? I'm certainly no genius or great player, but then again, you don't have to be a scientist to see that there's a pattern here. What we hear as sound must include the player, elsewise we'd all just go out and buy a certain guitar, have "that special tone", and be able to sound like that guy on the record. Oh, but were it that simple.

Another interesting thing I've seen time and again over the decades is how players buy one guitar, and then sell it after awhile because it doesn't have "that sound". They sell it and buy another, and another, and so on, all the while continuing on the quest for that "holy grail". Now, fast forward a decade or more and guess what? That same player is now looking for...that same guitar he got rid of so many years ago; that guitar he sold because it didn't sound like he thought it should. It didn't have that sound that was in his head. He wanted something better, or different, or newer. In his quest for "that sound", he finally discovers after years of playing and listening that he had it...way back when.

I've said many times here, "You can't buy the sound, you have to make it". Those words are pretty similar to Bob's. And I'll always remember this Buddy Emmons quote on the subject that was posted here on the forum many years ago -

Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.

I wish you luck...finding that sound that's in your head. Most of us never do, but it does ease the mind, some, when we can blame it on our equipment.

Willem,

Read the article from this topic: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=342563

Call Jim and make time to audition the guitars he has in stock: http://www.steelguitars.me/

Perhaps you'll find one which sounds closer to what is in your mind.

Happy hunting,

Lance

The tone is in the player, not the instrument.

It's all to do with how hard or gentle you pick, where you pick, your blocking, your volume pedal technique, it's endless.

First of all, thank you all for your thoughtful comments! I very much appreciate them.

The consensus seems to be that the Dekley is a fine guitar and that it is all in the hands. And I certainly agree that there is a lot of truth to that. So one conclusion is that I should practice more, and it’s not as if I didn’t realize that... The alternative is that I should come to terms with the fact that I’m a lousy steel player and I should just give up on it.

But I think there is something more to it than that. Sure, I’ll never be a Lloyd Myrick or a Buddy Franklin or a Paul Emmons or a Weldon Green. What I was hoping for, though, was that I could be just myself, and actually enjoy playing (and therefore practicing) on my pedal steel, or at least more than I am.

Let me give an example. Back in 1975 or so, I bought my first “good” electric guitar and amp. It was a Gibson Marauder and the same Peavey Classic 212 I already mentioned. That cost me pretty much all my savings at the time. No matter what I did, though, although a huge improvement over my previous guitar, I never liked the sound/tone of that setup. It just did not compare to the guitar sounds I liked. Much later in life I was able to afford an American Telecaster, and I now also have a Gretsch Red Falcon and a nice Epiphone Les Paul (and some others). Together with a Fender Mustang III and Headrush Pedalboard, I feel I’m all set electric-guitar-wise. All three guitars sound just great to me, and all three sound distinctly different, ideally to be used for different kinds of songs. I can make one sound sort-of like another by fiddling with amp settings, but it is quite difficult. In any case, I certainly don’t miss my Marauder, which I sold a few years back. I like playing any one of these guitars in the band, and don’t mind practicing on them, the rare time I get for that.

So it does seem to me that the intrinsic sound of the guitar does matter. And they do sound different. I have listened to all of Dave Hartley’s YouTube videos multiple times, and he has played a bunch of different steels (Rains, Justice, Franklin and others, and with different pickups) over the years with pretty much the same setup (Telonics amp etc. into the board into a Tascam recorder). While it is recognizably Dave playing every time, there are still differences in sound because of the guitar, despite the possibility that he may have adjusted his amp to make them sound more like what he likes. Of the ones mentioned, I like the Franklin the best, although I’d admit the others are fine too. Changing pickups is much more subtle: there are some great videos by Mickey Adams where he changes between about 6 different pickups in his MSA, and while the pickups do sound different, once you hear him play the third pickup, it’s hard to remember how it differs from the first one.

I therefore keep wondering if the same is true for my Dekley. Is the Dekley similar to the Marauder, which was a fine guitar for that matter, in that it just doesn’t quite have the tone I like? Would I like an MSA or Mullen or Justice or Williams better?

One consideration here of course is, that once you convince yourself that you have the “best there is”, you no longer have any excuses to avoid practicing…

Willy.

Perhaps you'll find one which sounds closer to what is in your mind.

Thanks for the links, Lance! Oceanside is far away from where I am, but maybe some day I can make a trip...

Willy.

Willem Langeveld wrote:First of all, thank you all for your thoughtful comments! I very much appreciate them.

The consensus seems to be that the Dekley is a fine guitar and that it is all in the hands. And I certainly agree that there is a lot of truth to that. So one conclusion is that I should practice more, and it’s not as if I didn’t realize that... The alternative is that I should come to terms with the fact that I’m a lousy steel player and I should just give up on it.

But I think there is something more to it than that. Sure, I’ll never be a Lloyd Myrick or a Buddy Franklin or a Paul Emmons or a Weldon Green. What I was hoping for, though, was that I could be just myself, and actually enjoy playing (and therefore practicing) on my pedal steel, or at least more than I am.

Let me give an example. Back in 1975 or so, I bought my first “good” electric guitar and amp. It was a Gibson Marauder and the same Peavey Classic 212 I already mentioned. That cost me pretty much all my savings at the time. No matter what I did, though, although a huge improvement over my previous guitar, I never liked the sound/tone of that setup. It just did not compare to the guitar sounds I liked. Much later in life I was able to afford an American Telecaster, and I now also have a Gretsch Red Falcon and a nice Epiphone Les Paul (and some others). Together with a Fender Mustang III and Headrush Pedalboard, I feel I’m all set electric-guitar-wise. All three guitars sound just great to me, and all three sound distinctly different, ideally to be used for different kinds of songs. I can make one sound sort-of like another by fiddling with amp settings, but it is quite difficult. In any case, I certainly don’t miss my Marauder, which I sold a few years back. I like playing any one of these guitars in the band, and don’t mind practicing on them, the rare time I get for that.

So it does seem to me that the intrinsic sound of the guitar does matter. And they do sound different. I have listened to all of Dave Hartley’s YouTube videos multiple times, and he has played a bunch of different steels (Rains, Justice, Franklin and others, and with different pickups) over the years with pretty much the same setup (Telonics amp etc. into the board into a Tascam recorder). While it is recognizably Dave playing every time, there are still differences in sound because of the guitar, despite the possibility that he may have adjusted his amp to make them sound more like what he likes. Of the ones mentioned, I like the Franklin the best, although I’d admit the others are fine too. Changing pickups is much more subtle: there are some great videos by Mickey Adams where he changes between about 6 different pickups in his MSA, and while the pickups do sound different, once you hear him play the third pickup, it’s hard to remember how it differs from the first one.

I therefore keep wondering if the same is true for my Dekley. Is the Dekley similar to the Marauder, which was a fine guitar for that matter, in that it just doesn’t quite have the tone I like? Would I like an MSA or Mullen or Justice or Williams better?

One consideration here of course is, that once you convince yourself that you have the “best there is”, you no longer have any excuses to avoid practicing…

Willy.

Look I understand where you are coming from... First off, concerning the Marauder.. yuck ,,
If you think another steel might give you what you want, give it a try,,, just don't be surprised when it does not work.. I have been at this going on 43 years, and the number of steels I have owned in that time is mind boggling.. Over 30 at least, maybe close to 35.. 12 Sho Buds alone, as well as 7 MSA's 4 Fenders,2Dekleys,Fessy/2Carters/MCI/ETS/GFI/Marlen, and a bunch more I don't even remember... I STILL don't have the sound that I really want, whatever that is.. Like others here, I make the best sound I can make with what I have,, i think its a good sound, but you might not agree...
I will say this however.. If any of the truly great steel players played my humble rig as it sits, their sound would far outpace anything I could muster simply because they are better players by a good margin.. Tone IS in the hands, its a tired old , used up saying but its 100% accurate. Try out some other guitars for sure, and if one makes you happy buy it... The fact that you enjoy it more than the dekley might make you play it more, and inspire you more, and if that indeed makes you a better player, than yes you will get closer to that "sound in your head" that you are seeking... However, your Dekley probably has that same elusive sound in it, it just needs to be brought out with the right hands, head and heart.. They could be yours if you want it to be... bob

So it does seem to me that the intrinsic sound of the guitar does matter.

Well, yes...it matters. But only if you think it matters. If you or I think a certain guitar or amp sounds "better", that's just an opinion. It's not a fact, but rather a personal and subjective judgment based on past experience...and probably some amount of hearsay. (Most of us are affected by hearsay, whether we like it or not.) I'll admit that I sometimes like the sound of some guitars better, but there's no sound that I really dislike. I can enjoy playing different guitars, and I enjoy hearing different guitars. I think that separates me from most members here. They have just one sound in their head, one special tone they want to hear...and it mocks them. It keeps them awake at night. It can become an obsession that overrules all logic. Instead of learning to master the instrument, they toil away on a quest for tone. Instead of focusing on their hands and their ability, instead of focusing on their emotion and soul, they focus on "things to buy".

I do not envy them.

Simple EQ settings make the difference of night and day no matter what brand PSG. Tone is in the right hand for sure. Been playing Sho Buds almost 40 years now. I love the Bud tone. Just my ears. I don't believe I ever heard a bad one. All in the player and his style is what makes the sound. I am satisfied with my tone. I run a basic setup. Nothing fancy. Super Pro D10, Steel Guitar Black Box, Hilton Volume Pedal, Hilton Delay (when needed), Dobro sim, Nashville 112. I have used everything you can imagine. Went back to the basics about 10 years ago. I like it.

Thanks again! I know what you're all saying.

All right, let me grudgingly add this bit: Last week I listened to a lot of pedal steels on a lot of songs on XM radio and on YouTube. After band practice that Thursday I turned on the Dekley setup and played a few things. Then I turned things back off, stood up and made a face. The bass player asked me what's with the face? And I said, somewhat sheepishly, "Well, that didn't sound as bad as I remember".

But only if you think it matters. If you or I think a certain guitar or amp sounds "better", that's just an opinion. It's not a fact, but rather a personal and subjective judgment based on past experience...and probably some amount of hearsay. (Most of us are affected by hearsay, whether we like it or not.)

Donny, you are quite right. It is certainly subjective, and there's not a small amount of psychology that goes into what one thinks is the right sound.

Simple EQ settings make the difference of night and day no matter what brand PSG.

Kevin, I have tried a lot of different EQ settings, and can't quite get it right, but I'll have a go at it again. Since you have a Nashville 112 what are your settings? I could try to use those as a start and dial something in from there.

Well, anyway. Still not sure if I shouldn't get another one... Most everybody here seems to have (or have had) several...

Willy.

I feel your pain and believe me that journey is a deep dark hole. I have 5 pedal steel and an embarrassing amount of guitars and amps. What I have discovered is that you can get the best out of each and that's where it ends. Trying different combinations of amp and guitar and eventually the perfect match. For example I bought a Zum Stage One and it was too bright no matter what I did with the amp. Matchbox or not it didn't work. Then I put a tube preamp in front of my amp and magic was made. Now I love that little steel. I had a similar situation with my MSA D10 Classic. So my thoughts are to try and find the right gear to match your steel and enjoy what you have.

Well, anyway. Still not sure if I shouldn't get another one... Most everybody here seems to have (or have had) several...

Willem, there's no right or wrong when it comes to "how many". I've got a half-dozen myself - cheap ones and expensive ones, old ones and new ones, and I'm a hacker on any of 'em! Lloyd Green mainly used one brand, and Buddy Emmons used just about all of them at one time or another. All that most of us (at least, I think "most of us") are trying to say is that there are right reasons and wrong reasons to go from one brand to another.

The right reasons? Well, they might be that we're just looking for something that suits us, that we're needing some variety, or that we're just experimenting with different sounds and feels.

The wrong reasons? Well, some of those might be that we want to sound "more professional", that some player said that a certain brand was "the best", or that "so and so" used one on a certain recording.

I just wish you good luck in whatever you choose!

The good news, Willem, is that you have a capacity for self-criticism. Not everyone you will meet is so blessed

Willem Langeveld wrote:Thanks again! I know what you're all saying.

All right, let me grudgingly add this bit: Last week I listened to a lot of pedal steels on a lot of songs on XM radio and on YouTube. After band practice that Thursday I turned on the Dekley setup and played a few things. Then I turned things back off, stood up and made a face. The bass player asked me what's with the face? And I said, somewhat sheepishly, "Well, that didn't sound as bad as I remember".

But only if you think it matters. If you or I think a certain guitar or amp sounds "better", that's just an opinion. It's not a fact, but rather a personal and subjective judgment based on past experience...and probably some amount of hearsay. (Most of us are affected by hearsay, whether we like it or not.)

Donny, you are quite right. It is certainly subjective, and there's not a small amount of psychology that goes into what one thinks is the right sound.

Simple EQ settings make the difference of night and day no matter what brand PSG.

Kevin, I have tried a lot of different EQ settings, and can't quite get it right, but I'll have a go at it again. Since you have a Nashville 112 what are your settings? I could try to use those as a start and dial something in from there.

Well, anyway. Still not sure if I shouldn't get another one... Most everybody here seems to have (or have had) several...

Willy.

If you think it will make you feel better, then you might want to do that.

I had a Sho~Bud Super~Pro that I just could not love. It didn't quite have that old Sho~Bud sound I would hear. Even with putting my favorite pickups in it, that older Bud sound wasn't there. I later got a SB Professional that had that sound. Luckily, my main guitar at the time I had the Super Pro, was a Kline. Awesome guitar.

Good luck in your quest.

Here’s my little memoir about the sound you hear in your head. I remember this like it was yesterday… FWIW…

In 1976 I was touring with Chris Hillman, and we were opening for The Band. I was playing keys and steel, and I was playing a 6139 thru a Twin…and not at all liking the sound I was getting. Fighting it every night. Wondering whether I needed new steel or amp. Or both. Just totally bummed at my sound.
We were playing some really cool venues - theaters and arenas. One afternoon we were in Philadelphia, and playing at the old Spectrum arena. I had been in the catering room, and was on my way to the stage for our sound check. As I was walking down the hallway I hear music coming from the PA, as the sound company is ringing out the system. Couldn’t quite tell what it was, but I’m hearing steel doing a solo on a ballad. Really nice, too. Great tone. I thought, Man, why can’t my steel sound like that?

You know where this is going, right?

Yep… it was us from a few nights before. They had recorded our show, and what I was hearing was my solo from Sin City. I was pretty much blown away that the gear I had been fighting - and hating - sounded that good. Surprised the hell out of me…

I chalked it up as one of those life lessons about the sound you hear in your head.
FWIW that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.

Willem, Here is my NV 112 settings, Low +9, Mid -9, Shift 12:00, High -3, presence -6, Reverb 3, Pre Gain 3, Master Gain 8. The majority of shows I play are all outdoors, county fairs and festivals. My Sho Bud has OEM PUP's. My Black Box setting is 2:00. The only setting that I change is the Low setting when I play the C6 neck. I will set the Low at -3. My Delay setting, when I use it is just 1 repeat. My repeat tone volume is less than the original tone. As far as using the NV 112, I have been using NV 112's for about 12 years now. Been using Peavey Amps for almost 40 years. Their is a vast selection of amps to choose from for PSG and they are all good. For me the NV 112 has the best voicing for Sho Buds. Hope this info does you some good.

Thanks, Kevin!

Willy.