.020p or .022w on ShoBud E9 6th string

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 5 Dec 2005 7:26 pm

I have the .020 plain right now and it feels pretty good. What I don't like is the strings not pulling together like the ZB. Will the .022w have more travel and tension? I probably will end up trying the .022 but would like to hear pros and cons anyway.
Thanks Dave

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Dec 2005 7:32 pm

The wound string will require MUCH longer throw. You probably won't lower it a whole tone with the stock Sho-Bud changer if you go to the wound. It will sound better, but if you want whole tone ups or downs you'll have to stick with a plain. I raise and lower a whole tone and sometimes even lower G# down to E just for fun so I don't use a wound sixth, but John Coop tells me my new changer will be able to handle it, but the original changer probably won't.

YMMV.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 December 2005 at 07:33 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Dec 2005 7:39 pm

One of the drawbacks is that it will give you a less strong signal through your pickup than your plain .020. Maybe depending on the alloy of your windings.. I dunno, but that's the way mine works.

I've raised the magnets under the smaller wound strings ( JW made them that way for me) for a solution to that problem.

I don't know what kind of rig you have but you might want to change your throw length on that string. My Marrs-Bud has a number of choices for that, matching pulls etc.

If I remember right, my ProIII had to use the farthest hole in the axle finger, and it still wasn't quite long enough, ( as Larry said.)

I never liked a wound 6th. What I gained in stability of the "tuning" and less susceptability to heat and cold, I always felt I lost in "bite".

JMHO

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 05 December 2005 at 07:42 PM.]

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 5 Dec 2005 7:54 pm

Brother Ricky, Come on in here and give these guys a lesson!

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 5 Dec 2005 8:13 pm

WeeeeeeeeeeeLLL....I use a wound .022 for the reason of the two strings to pull together and the matter of intonation/overtones that are inharent with the plain sixth string. That was the reason Lloyd Green started using the wound string in that position also; but I never listened to him until I started learning how to hear intonation; and that's when I tried it and solved a lot of probs.
Yes; like Larry said; you won't be able to lower that string a whole tone with the original finger set up; if it's wound. But I would rather loose the whole tone lower(I do lower it a half though) and gain a more stable sounding string; in that position. Sure if you try it and it just doesn't sound right to ya...(is what happened to me the first time I tried it); and you go back to a plain> is because you didn't give it time for you to learn how to pick it and sound it properly(is what I found out after trying it again for much longer).
You can hear all the Cracker Barrel sessions and all the Dale Watson sessions and you can hear the wound 6th string just fine in there; as I do.
Here's an example; as; almost, the whole intro of this song has the wound 6th string in it> We Could
And pretty much Everything you've ever heard Lloyd Green play; has a wound 6th string and you can hear that just fine also.
So these are my findings and the way I went about it(and my opinions may not be for everyone); and I also wrote a thing about "spring tension" on these old Sho-buds; on how you can get strings to pull together; by using certain tension on some and not on others> but the string gauges are important to do that>..but you'll have to search for that...ha..
Good luck in your Quest.
Ricky

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 5 Dec 2005 8:21 pm

I wasn't planning on lowering the 6th at all. Just raising both G#'s to A. Will that require any more effort or pedal travel?

Thanks for the input.
Dave

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 5 Dec 2005 10:16 pm

Wound sixth for me on every steel I've ever had.
Cabinet drop is not so noticeable with a wound sixth.
On an all-pull steel, mods are required to allow for the longer throw if the sixth is lowered a full tone, eg the lower return spring may get overstretched without the mod.
(I have been asked several times what this mod is, a sketch is pending).
Dave, if you are raising only, use a wound sixth, and alter the pedal travel by repositioning the pull-rod on the bellcrank.
The improvement in tuning stability is marked.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 6 Dec 2005 12:08 am

Yes, even just the standard B pedal raise will entail increasing the length of the throw with the wound 6th. I changed to the wound string for the intonation stability and I concur---the improvement is quite significant--not just a subtle thing. Loved it. But I also concur; the bite, the attack, the edge, is diminished. I stayed with it for a good half-year or soand then finally decided that I wasn't happy and went back.
Of course I'm now considering the wound string again because I'm fickle and because the cold weather is playing with the intonation and because of those ugly overtones on the fat unwound wire that make it sound like a dead string. So the decision is not a slam-dunk. I'd love to find a wound string with more umph or a plain string with more stability.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Dec 2005 9:55 am

Just a thought, but going to an 0.024 wound instead of 0.022 would increase the tension, shorten the throw, and give a little more bite. It's that tiny string at the core of an 0.022 that is the problem, and of course, the 0.024 will have a thicker core. According to the pitch versus gauge chart I plotted for myself using the gauges in standard packages, an 0.024 wound should have about the same tension as the wound F#, E, and D strings. I haven't tried this myself because I use plain 6th strings. But if I ever try wound, I'll try an 0.024. If anyone has tried this, let us know how it worked.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 6 Dec 2005 10:55 am

Dave, on all my D10 E9th tunings in the past I have used a plain .022, rather than a plain .020... might give that a try before the wound .022. The .022 plain will require less distance to raise it to A than either the plain .020 or the wound .022. If you do this, change strings often as the thick plain string (o.22) will get "thuddy" sounding before your .017, .014 and .011/.010 strings. Also, if you haven't yet, try the Jagwire strings, I love em.

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Chuck S. Lettes · Post by **Chuck S. Lettes** » 6 Dec 2005 11:51 am

I have been using a 24W for my sixth string. It blends well with the other strings and stays in pitch, on both my old MSA and on my Mullen.
Chuck

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 6 Dec 2005 1:05 pm

David D--I believe at one point, while I was rodded for the wound string, I did try the .024w for exactly the reasons that you suggest and did not find enough difference over the .022 to be significant.
David W--I know I've tried a .022 and frankly I just don't recall my impressions. But on an academic note, wouldn't the higher tension the results in a shorter throw also exacerbate the tuning stability issues? Seems like this one string is balanced on a delicate set of compromises--it is the largest plain wire or the smallest wound string, right on the edge of the performance limitations of either.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 6 Dec 2005 2:19 pm

I've been using the plain .020 on my 12 string E9th/B6th for so long, I'm really just going on my faded memories of using the plain .022. However... many stock E9th string sets had (70s-80s)this p .022 as the 6th string (I noted Russ Hicks still using this), and when I tried a wound replacement there seemed too radical a change in string tone between the .018 5th string (no longer use .018s either)and the wound string.

However, the added tension on the plain .022 would probably help Dave Z.'s problem of having his two G#s raise the same, and both the .011 and p .022 have high tension, and relative short pulls.

Hey Dave Z., pull your hair out yet on this one? I'd try the strings in this order:
p.022; then put on a w.024; if still looking then try the w.022. If I'm not mistaken this order will require the least amount of adjustments (but never tried a w.024 myself).

when you do try the different strings, be sure to try them at all locations up and down your neck.

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 6 Dec 2005 2:45 pm

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 April 2006 at 10:23 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 11 Dec 2005 3:33 am

Look at the changer end on my ZB.
The finger extensions that I have bolted to the changer fingers are clearly visible, as are the lower return springs.
These long return springs make for much less effort at the knee lever
Note: I have deliberately put these photos vertically, so as not to increase the page width.
If anyone wants to see them in a better orientation, save the pic and turn it 90 degrees anticlockwise.

.

[This message was edited by richard burton on 11 December 2005 at 03:38 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Dec 2005 11:43 am

The .022 wound has less tension and requires more travel.

The popularity of the full-tone lower has been a driving force behind the switch from wound to plain in recent years. It's hard to get the wound string to drop that far.

I prefer the sound of the wound string. The tone of a thick plain string (.020p or .022p) never sounds quite right to me. It's almost like it beats against itself on certain frets. I'm sure that many people disagree with me though, including some of the world's greatest players.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 12 Dec 2005 7:19 pm

.022 plain is what I've been using for years. For my taste, its a cleaner brighter sound which I like.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 4 Feb 2006 4:15 am

Here is my solution to the problem of excessive spring travel on an all-pull, especially a wound sixth dropping a full tone.

The device I have drawn here was made for my Carter, but the same idea could be used on other brands, without too much modification.

[This message was edited by richard burton on 04 February 2006 at 04:17 AM.][This message was edited by richard burton on 04 February 2006 at 04:19 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Feb 2006 8:12 am

Richard, that is a very nice looking solution to a common problem. Lower return springs should be longer.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 4 Feb 2006 9:09 am

Thanks, Earnest.

If I still had the Carter, I could put photos up.

Maybe the current owner, my friend James Martin, could post some photos of this mod.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Feb 2006 10:48 am

Noticing that this topic is two months old - what did you end up doing, Dave?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 4 Feb 2006 11:25 am

Nobody asked but...I'm just putting the fine-tuning touches on my latest change-over, back to the wound .022. Been there before, got restless with the (perceived) tone & volume weakness of the wound string and went back to .020 plain. Been very unhappy lately with tuning instability so I'm back. This time I'm going to concentrate on adapting my picking and VP technique to the characteristics of the string. Knowing some of the players who make the wound string work for them, well...that's enough reason to try to make it work for me, considering its advantages.

The Carter, with its gear-down cross rod on 6, makes for a more complex undercarriage change than this would otherwise be. But it would be real hard to synch up 3, 6, and 10 (on U-12) without it. Anyone doing this on a Carter would want to unlink the 6th string from the gear-down assembly and go straight from B pedal cross rod to changer.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 4 Feb 2006 1:13 pm

.020 plain is what's worked for me on all of my guitars over the years. .20P on #6 & .024W on #7-G#.

Tony Dingus · Post by **Tony Dingus** » 4 Feb 2006 8:44 pm

I use SIT's but, I use a GHS Boomer W22 for my 6th and it has less travel than other brands I've tried and I can lower it a whole tone. The brightness of a Boomer to my ear, works good with the plain 5th. It works for me and I know everybody has their own opinion.

Tony

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 5 Feb 2006 12:45 am

Good for you Jon; I'm proud of ya.....That's the ticket man...you have to perfect your technique to get used to sounding out the wound string at that position....
It took me a while too.....>but I didn't care....because everything I heard a long time ago from my playing with a plain string there....was "OUT OF TUNE".
I've been using a wound 6th now for 10 years-ish....and have of course no troubles with the tuning...and you can't tell what string I have there> for an example...here's a intro clip and the 6th string is played pretty much throughout the entire intro> We Could Intro
AS seen from the tab here>
We Could Tab
Ricky