Winnie Winston book -- Volume 2 ?!?

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 27 Dec 2005 12:48 pm

I have always found Winnie's book to be very impressive from all aspects of playing pedal steel. Right now, I am hoping to take a step forward in my knowledge of music theory.

Winnie did an EXCEPTIONAL job of presenting various ideas of music theory and explaining them in simple terms. Things like the Circle of 5ths, tetrachords, etc. Of course, being a pedal steel book, Winnie only took the theory so far. My question now....what is the BEST resource to continue on with Winnie's method of presenting this stuff? I know there are a lot of music theory books out there, but most of the ones I have seen at the bookstore and library are a few notches ahead of where I am at (and the "Dummy" books do not come near Winnie's method of explanation....).

Were any of you in this boat and, if so, can you offer a good resource for me to follow?

Thanks!

Joe

Thom Darrow · Post by **Thom Darrow** » 27 Dec 2005 2:12 pm

Your in luck Joe, I'm a new person to the pedal steel. I also have the book by Winnie & Bill Keith. I'm a 20 year Gibson banjo player, and Bill is also a banjo player and a pedal steel player,and a darn good teacher also.Dewitt Scott's, book "anthology of pedal steel guitar". This is a vary helpfull book and CD, and "E9th pedal steel guitar instruction book" by Neil Flanz,also a vary good book with CD.Also music and book by Tom Brumley, I like Tom's way of playing pedal steel music.Tom has a CD called Tom Cattin and Scotty's has the tab book.Thom...

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 28 Dec 2005 6:32 am

Thanks for the reply, Thom....as I mentioned, I am looking for some materials that will help develop my knowledge of music theory, presented in a way similar to the way Winnie did it.

Anyone?

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 28 Dec 2005 7:00 am

Enumeration risks omission...

Scotty's "Anthology of Pedal Steel Guitar" is good.

There is also Scotty's "Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar Method" book/CD set. (available from b0b.. click link at bottom of this page and go to "Instruction").

Buy Bobbe Seymour's "Masters" CD and corresponding Tab Book and get ready for a wild ride...

Of course be sure to shop at b0b's window panes first.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 28 December 2005 at 07:03 AM.][This message was edited by Ray Minich on 28 December 2005 at 07:05 AM.]

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 28 Dec 2005 7:05 am

Music theory is what I am looking for.

Not pedal steel instruction courses.

Thanks,

Joe

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 28 Dec 2005 7:09 am

Your gonna find Scotty's book to be one and the same, music theory, with where to find it on the PSG. What, where, when, how, and why. Actually, the two topics are probably more intertwined on this instrument than any other.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 28 Dec 2005 8:19 am

I would respectfully suggest learning theory as a concept to be applied to any instrument.

Theory is abstract, and you need to make the sounds real to understand and use them. The pedal steel is a very challenging instrument which does not reveal, in an obvious way, the workings of theory, UNLESS you already know what to look for.

Piano will give you the most flexible view of music theory (guitar isn't bad either- I graduated from Berklee in 1980 with zero piano experience, but I learned to arrange for large ensembles, etc. by understanding chord construction and voicing, etc. Lots of ear training too). You may find the concepts of chord construction and inversion on pedal steel more easily understood if you can "see" it in notation and/or on the piano, and then sit down and apply the concept to the steel.

I have tons of steel instruction, and almost no one uses standard notation, and there is very little theory ever presented- it is almost all mechanics, "do this here and then do this". The mechanics are fine, you need to know them, but if you are curious about theory, you are probably like me-it drives me crazy to not know what I'm doing in terms of "what is this against the chord?". It makes "playing from tab" just the starting point of figuring out what the hell is going on, musically, so then the IDEAS can be applied to other situations, in other keys and tempos etc. and I'm not just reciting licks.

Lots of guys on the Forum will chime in and say forget all that stuff and just play. Different strokes, etc. The fact is that many players can hear what they want to happen, and make it happen, but can't explain it in musical terms, as they just didn't learn that way. I don't think one way is better than the other, for everyone- whatever floats your boat!!!

I'd suggest finding a good private teacher to work with- it can be pretty confounding, especially in the beginning, without someone to help decode the lingo. Also, the classical folks tend to use a lot of obscure terminology, where as the jazz guys will call the 3rd of a chord the 3rd, rather than "a 6/3 inversion" or whatever the hell the conservatory calls it

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 28 December 2005 at 08:29 AM.]

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 28 Dec 2005 10:54 am

Some background pertaining to my request:

I do have some basic knowledge of music theory....I can read music (but I'm slow), I understand most chords and their notation (major = I, III, V) and some chord progressions (basic = I, IV, V).

I'm looking to get a better understanding of the whole "Circle of Fifths," determining when and where 7th, 6th, 13th, etc. chords could and/or should be used, get a better understanding of minors in relation to majors (which, I guess, means fully learning the notes in each key and the chords in each key...if that even makes sense!!).

Like I said, Winnie touched on many of this, but it was a primer. Certainly, I can see when I am playing a progression that "oh! I am playing a F7 right now and resolving into an C while everyone else is playing a C major....that sounds nice." Now I want to understand WHY it sounds nice. I believe knowing this stuff would help improve my playing quite a bit....

Sooo....any books that any of you have used that would be a good progression from the basic theory Winnie presented?

Joe

Craig Mckinnon · Post by **Craig Mckinnon** » 28 Dec 2005 12:26 pm

Joe,
I recall a previous post by forumite Mark Van Allen where he was working on a book that would discuss music theory in the particular context of pedal steel.
I think this would be a great resource. I have been trying to increase my knowledge of theory but struggle to apply it to my steel. I want to move a way from tab or at least understand the theory behind the tab.
Maybe Mark can update us on this project?

Jason Schofield · Post by **Jason Schofield** » 28 Dec 2005 2:18 pm

If you want the best book on theory, hands down . Get a copy of The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. It's easy to understand and can be applied to any style of music. It really is the best.

clive swindell · Post by **clive swindell** » 29 Dec 2005 5:27 am

Hi Joe

The printed material that I have found most useful after the Winston and Scotty books are 'E9th Chord Directory' by Jeff Newman - how to form and where to use various chords,

and

a series of 8 articles that appeared in Steel Guitar World Magazine in 1992/1993 by Mike Perlowin entitled 'Music Theory for E9th Players'. You should be able to get these either from the back issues that are still around or maybe from Mike himself - I think that he is on the Forum sometimes.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 29 Dec 2005 8:22 am

Mike has a book on general musical theory for musicians available from Mel Bay, and he will hook you up with an email file presenting examples for E9 tuning. I'm sure he'll turn up here soon with more info.

I'm working away on my book, the toughest part is making it comprehensive enough to cover what we really need and use on sessions and gigs, and yet not making it too daunting for the theory beginners who might need it most. Tricky!

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 29 Dec 2005 8:35 am

Willies book just arrived in the mail yesterday. Ya know, i been playing music all my life, had a theory class in college, etc...but i never understood what a circle of fifths was till yesterday, and had never heard of a "tetrachord" till then either.

Something about the way he explained it in that book made it easily understandable and easy to visualize...unlike all that conservatory babble i got from my previous attempts to learn theory.

I can understand how someone would want "volume 2".

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Dec 2005 9:22 am

As Mark has pointed out. I've written a music theory book that's published by Mel Bay Publications. The book is a general theory vook as it applies to all instruments.

I've also written a steel guitar supplememnt with tabbed out examples from the book and an explanation of how the things in the book r3elate to the E9 pedals.

I will E-mail the file of the supplement for free to anybody who wants it.

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 29 Dec 2005 12:07 pm

No disrespect to all the books, and the great guys who wrote them, but... It is my, MY opinion that the best way to figure out how to play this wacky instrument is to "teach" yourself. It helps to know a little music theory, but it does not have to be a pedal steel music theory book. Mike P. has written one and I'm sure it's good, but I still think learning just good music theory i.e. how a chord is made, scales, etc. will open your mind up.
Sit there at your steel and figure out where all the major triads are. Press the pedals and figure out what they are doing to the triad. Move on to minor triads and then the 7th's etc. I think that if you do this, you will have a better understanding of the whole darn thing musically.
Think of it this way, if someone told you a specific route to get to your destination, and you only followed his path, think of all the cool stuff you might miss if you found your own way. This only applies to the music theory part of learning pedal steel. There are many physical techniques that take awhile to master. I do believe getting a pedal steel coach or tutor is helpful at some point. Just to correct the things that are giving you problems.
Again, guys, I mean no disrespect to any of the teachers who use coarses etc, this is just my own thought and it's how I got where I'm at today. There are many ways to get where you're going, I chose a winding road.
peace,
Dave

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 1 Jan 2006 4:10 pm

Mike...I would greatly appreciate a copy of the file you mentioned you can send via e-mail. Thanks!

Joe

Eugene Offield · Post by **Eugene Offield** » 1 Jan 2006 4:21 pm

Mike.. I would appreciate a copy of you`re file also. Thank`s, Eugene

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 1 Jan 2006 5:15 pm

Joe: Two suggestions...1st, prowl through a college book store for the music texts that they will be using that semester; you might find something that speaks to you.

2nd, the best theory $ I have ever spent is for a book called THE THEORY OF HARMONY by ARNOLD SCHOENBERG...translated by Roy E Carter...U of CAL press.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Jan 2006 6:31 pm

. Mike P. has written ...a pedal steel music theory book

Well, yes and no. I orininally wrote a series of articles for SGW, then consolidated them all into a book on theory for steel, but then I re-wrote the book to be about music theory in general as it applies to all instruments. This is the book that is published by Mel Bay. The only reference it contains to the steel guitar is in the "about the author" section.

I subsequently took all the material that was in the articles and the steel version of the book, and re-wrote them into a steel guitar supplement to the Mel Bay book. This is of course what I'm offering for free.

Because the published book is NOT instrument specific, it appeals to players of many different instruments, and has outsold many of Mel Bay's other books that teach just one. It remains one of that company's better sellers.

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"Never underestimate the value of eccentrics and Lunatics" -Lional Luthor (Smallville) [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 01 January 2006 at 06:32 PM.]

Bill Bosler · Post by **Bill Bosler** » 2 Jan 2006 5:31 am

Joe try this website. I use it all the time.
www.homestead.com/dennysguitars/lessonsindex1.html

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 2 Jan 2006 5:08 pm

It's my personal observation that, to find by accident, all of the things the E9th tuning is capable of, would take me a thousand years.

Dave White · Post by **Dave White** » 2 Jan 2006 5:20 pm

Reminds me of a quote from Dr. G.V. Black, who is considered by many to be the father of modern dentistry, who said: "The professional man has no right to be other than a perpetual student." Just remove the phrase "professional man" and insert "musician" or "steel player." We could live to be 1,000 and never learn all there is to know about this instrument.

KarlKoch · Post by **KarlKoch** » 3 Jan 2006 2:09 pm

Mike: You mention some adjunct material that is steel specific. I can't email out from work till I've received something, then I can reply. Please send if possible to kkoch@psusd.us - I also read about your book on the forum, and got one through Amazon about 2 months ago. I'm taking it slow (as you reccomend), but am getting alot out of it. Well explained. Thanks