8 String Lap Steel Jazz Tuning

[John A Knight]

I have an 8 string Lap Steel tuned:

E G# B C# E G# B E (low - high)

I used to play guitar but due to disability can no longer hold down chords, play scales or finger pick, I use a slide on my index finger palm down & a thumb pick. The 6th 2nd & 1st strings provides standard guitar tuning reference points but the chords available are very limited.

I need a tuning with chords for Jazz, Blues, Country without using slants. There was such a tuning on the internet some time ago but the website seems to be gone.

This site is good for testing different tunings:

https://12bar.de/php/scale_generator.php

[Scott Duckworth]

One of my 6 string laps is tuned the same way with the upper 6 strings of your 8 string tuning. It is E6. Also you can change the C# to D and get a traditional E7 tuning.

6 string E6 (low to high)
B C# E G# B E

6 string E7 (low to high)
B D E G# B E

[Hal Stackhouse]

Sent you an email.

Hal

[David Mason]

"Normal" 6th tunings have only 4 notes: root, third, fifth, sixth. I have this weird problem with really skinny strings - I can't get them loud enough, without EQ'ing the rest of the highs too drastically. So I arbitrarily set a .013" as the highest note - an "E"- and built the four tunings down from it. The "E" is treated as the root, the third, the fifth and as the sixth. All that happens is the intervals move around, from string group to string group. And you can use the same set of strings, although once you settle there will be some gauge changes. Theree's a chart down there SOME-where, I kinda muffed the first post.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... ur+tunings

I actually play a ten string,with a "wrong" 4th note inserted on string 9 (just like the pedal steel tunings), but this stuff can keep you busy for a while. It's not meant as a technical theory thing, more like, a semi-educative thing to fiddle with.

[Robert Murphy]

I came up with this tuning and I can play most melodies right from the sheet music.

[Stephen Cowell]

The tuning you've chosen is limited, as you've found.

Alkyre and Leavitt are the two tunings that come to mind... diatonic also comes to mind (Robert's post above is similar).

All of the tunings I've mentioned take a lot of work to master... they don't 'strum' at all. I'd first start by putting C6 (or another 6) tuning on your guitar, there's a reason it's the most popular tuning... it's not a great strum like E13, but it has maj/min chords easy to find and is good for single-note runs since it's reasonably close harmonies put the notes the right distance apart.


Lap steelers get away with 'implying' chords, if you want the whole enchilada without accompaniment help then pedal steel is the best game in town... and even then they can have multiple necks. Many of us either have multi-neck instruments, or multiple instruments with different tunings, to cover the bases you suggest.

[Bill McCloskey]

Spelling police: Alkire, not Alkyre .

The first 8 strings of the Alkire tuning give you a lot of chords major, and inversion (I chord and IV chord on same fret), minor, dom 7th, minor 7th, major 6th, minor 6th, bunch of others. F F# G G# A B C# D (bottom to top)

[Michael James]

I play a lot of jazz on a 6 string lap steel.
The default tuning I use is Cma11 and C11.

Cma11 Low to High C-E-G-B-D-F

Without slants this tuning gives me these basic chord that are transposible up the neck.

Triads=C,Em,G,Bdim
7th Chords=Cma7,Emi7,G7
9th Chords=Cma9

C11-Low to High C-E-G-Bb-D-F - Lower 3rd string 1/2 step from Cma11.
Triads=C,Edim,Gmi,Bb
7th Chords=C7,Em7b5,Gm7
9th Chords=C9

I use a Pitch-Key on my 3rd string for quick tuning for switches between Cma11 and C11.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgRsRIfXANs

I hope this helps.
mj

Here's some videos of me playing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-er0Vy7sew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q6gkvktTfQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cza6zKyio

[Stefan Robertson]

Said time and time again:

Also worth mentioning is there is no tuning as versatile as E13 but its also the hardest to master.

Every jazz and 3 note voicing you could need are there.

So let me clarify

Drop 2, drop 3 etc voicing are there. If no slanting is involved it means you have to move your bar a lot more but they are there.

Leavitt tuning is excellent and so great that is incorporated in my E13 but on its own is less logical than the E13. Combined they become a tour de force.

[Stefan Robertson]

The tuning you've chosen is limited, as you've found.

Alkyre and Leavitt are the two tunings that come to mind... diatonic also comes to mind (Robert's post above is similar).

All of the tunings I've mentioned take a lot of work to master... they don't 'strum' at all. I'd first start by putting C6 (or another 6) tuning on your guitar, there's a reason it's the most popular tuning... it's not a great strum like E13, but it has maj/min chords easy to find and is good for single-note runs since it's reasonably close harmonies put the notes the right distance apart.


Lap steelers get away with 'implying' chords, if you want the whole enchilada without accompaniment help then pedal steel is the best game in town... and even then they can have multiple necks. Many of us either have multi-neck instruments, or multiple instruments with different tunings, to cover the bases you suggest.

E13 gives a great strum

has the closest harmonies
has maj and min in logical positions is similar chord "grips" tp E9 pedal steel
Due to close harmonies is better for single note runs meaning less bar movement laterally.

Don't take my word for it create your own E13 chart and look at the Major, Melodic minor, Wholetone, Diminished, Harmonic major and minor Scales and because it also has a C6 style layout the Major/minor pentatonic and blues scales are like C6.

Fret centres are similar to guitar so fret 1 is F fret 3 is G you get the idea.

I am reworking my site and will be ready to share my discoveries soon.

[John A Knight]

Thanks for the replies, lots of information to process, I will investigate.

[David M Brown]

I can play all the jazz I want to on A6 - and if I retune to B11, even more options.

Other tunings are great, but I can get all the chords and more importantly melodic runs on A6.

Chords are not the only thing important in jazz.

[Stefan Robertson]

...
Chords are not the only thing important in jazz.

Hmm... I have seen A6 and C6 and B11 and they look pretty shitty for loads of scales so not sure what scales you are using but please share.

Obviously you must be using some cool 2-5-1 scale that encompasses those arpeggios and extensions.

Can you please share what scales and notes in the Key of C cause I found the lateral movement of C6, A6 and B11 over 2 octaves weak for most scales but I am missing the scales/substitutes you are using.

[Stefan Robertson]

The Major modes look ok and melodic minor look ok and maybe even the WH diminished is livable but your wholetone scale over 2 octaves is difficult not to mention some other scales.

lots of lateral movement and disconnect.

B11th my goodness where to begin for solo work that looks a nightmare. No thanks.

Soloing on any tuning is possible but dang why make it so hard. Would like to know however their approaches especially the B11th and A6 players what do you do?

[Mike Neer]

John, I think your question is a very interesting one. Obviously, as you can see, many people have their own opinions as to what works for them. However, in your case, you are coming from guitar and are looking to continue to play in a similar fashion.

One question to ask yourself, given all the limitations that you've found in your tuning, what are the voicings that you relied upon most as a guitarist and how do you want to sound in relation to that? Can you give an example of how you would play chords for a Bb blues in a jazz style on guitar? Did you always use a bass note in your chords and if so, are you experienced with all inversions?

I think it's important to go forward with what is comfortable for you and work from there.

[David M Brown]

...
Chords are not the only thing important in jazz.

Hmm... I have seen A6 and C6 and B11 and they look pretty shitty for loads of scales so not sure what scales you are using but please share.

Obviously you must be using some cool 2-5-1 scale that encompasses those arpeggios and extensions.

Can you please share what scales and notes in the Key of C cause I found the lateral movement of C6, A6 and B11 over 2 octaves weak for most scales but I am missing the scales/substitutes you are using.

Billy Hew Len showed on his tapes the usefulness of A6.

He also showed that you can play a 1 octave major scale with very little movement.

please read on...

The Major modes look ok and melodic minor look ok and maybe even the WH diminished is livable but your wholetone scale over 2 octaves is difficult not to mention some other scales.

lots of lateral movement and disconnect.

B11th my goodness where to begin for solo work that looks a nightmare. No thanks.

Soloing on any tuning is possible but dang why make it so hard. Would like to know however their approaches especially the B11th and A6 players what do you do?

The top strings are the same in A6 and B11 - that makes many passages the same in either tuning.

Not all jazz is bebop, and just to play all inversions of any chord is not my goal.

Whole tone triads - and thus scales - are easy with a fudge slant.

Stefan, I know you are passionate about your special tuning, but it ain't for everyone!

C6, A6, and B11 are classic tuning used by pros for decades. For me, they do the job better than a complex tuning that has certain merits but is just overcomplicated for my musical needs.

[Stefan Robertson]

...
Stefan, I know you are passionate about your special tuning, but it ain't for everyone!

C6, A6, and B11 are classic tuning used by pros for decades. For me, they do the job better than a complex tuning that has certain merits but is just overcomplicated for my musical needs.

I appreciate your position David...but I'm pretty sure nothing can top pedal steel in its complex development and layout with pedal and levers but it still happened.

I guess just like that I need to post some recorded examples at that level and that will open hearts and minds.

[Stefan Robertson]

You can go with this: Lap steel





Or you can go with that: pedal steel

[Stefan Robertson]

Mastery on any instrument takes work but having options no matter what anyone says simply makes sense.

You can choose to use them or NOT.

E13#9/F tuning has options a plenty

If help is needed to understand it message me and I can arrange lessons where you design your own chord book of voicings and scales and it'll all make sense.

Happy playing all and let's keep steelin'

TIP: Look at your key centre on the 8th fret key of C
Now look for all the C's you can find on the fretboard for alternate voicings.
Do this with the 3rd and 7th of each chord

Happy hunting.

[David M Brown]

I appreciate your position David...but I'm pretty sure nothing can top pedal steel in its complex development and layout with pedal and levers but it still happened.

I guess just like that I need to post some recorded examples at that level and that will open hearts and minds.

It's not about one single thing being right and the other ways wrong.

Pedal steel, for instance, indeed has great charm and technical capacities.

I just don't enjoy using my feet and knees!

As for "open hearts and minds", there's plenty room in the steel world for a variety of approaches.

I have no need for my lap steel to sound like a piano or "Spanish" guitar - I play both of them anyway.

I want my lap steel to do other things. My tunings and 6 and one 8 string steel work for me.

Other folks have 7 and 8 stringed steels, multiple necks, etc.

So you have convinced me that if I wanted to cover a bebop piano part I would want a more complex tuning - but I don't want that.

Anyway, I do appreciate the logic and thought guys like you, Wm. Leavitt, et al have applied to steel guitar and how to play complex bop chords.

Yet, no matter what tuning or how many strings we use, there's also the art of playing up and down a single string on a steel guitar for sheer melody - something that a real piano cannot do.

Just a thought.

[b0b]

I play D6/G which is basically the middle 8 of a pedal steel C6th, raised a step. Being higher, it sounds bright enough for country but it still has all of the common C6th chord voicings.

Low to high: G B D F# A B D F#

[John McClung]

Tip of the hat and thanks to Michael James for that hint about Pitch-Key, pretty amazing gizmo. Sent info to my daughter who uses scads of alt tunings on acoustic guitar, this could really simplify her life!

Might even prove useful on pedal steel, just not sure string spacing is suitable, any idea about that, Michael?

[Stefan Robertson]

Well said David. I love this steel family. Such Gents.

Can't wait to get my new site up and running to share some ideas.

My E13#9/F has been designed to be as flexible as a pedal steel C6th with E9 and C6 chord grips also some more spaced voicings like jazz guitar.

Any genre capable. The revolution will be televised.

Super stoked.

[John A Knight]

Said time and time again:

Also worth mentioning is there is no tuning as versatile as E13 but its also the hardest to master.

Every jazz and 3 note voicing you could need are there.

So let me clarify

Drop 2, drop 3 etc voicing are there. If no slanting is involved it means you have to move your bar a lot more but they are there.

Leavitt tuning is excellent and so great that is incorporated in my E13 but on its own is less logical than the E13. Combined they become a tour de force.

Please spell your E13 tuning for 8 string.

[Roy Thomson]

I worked out a chord pattern for the Alkire Tuning several years ago. It's 4/4 and as you will hear in the undernoted clip on the 1st and 3rd counts in the measure I place a
melody note on top of the chording. I did not persue this beyond what I did here but one could augment the melody notes and it would sound like two guitars for a jazzy solo sound. My alkire is an acoustic steel with 10 strings but what I,m doing here can be done on 8 with no problem.
Link to clip:
http://picosong.com/w5g8c