push pull 4th string raise question

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Hi... I've got an early Emmons pp S10. I'm having difficulty getting my 4th string E to pull up to F#.
I got it to make the pull, only to discover that it would not allow the E to lower. What's the trick?

Thanks... Henry

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

The trick is to sell me the Emmons and get something else!!

Merry Christmas Henry.

DZ

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I don't think I could sell it, Dave. I might trade it for a nice ZB though!

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Henry
Assuming your changer is set to raise and lower to those notes, you don't have enough slack in the raise linkage to allow the lower to complete its action. Back off the raise collar on string 4 bellcrank of the pedal C crossbar, then lengthen the pedal travel to accomodate the extra slack. The lower should then go all the way down.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Hi Herb. I can get one or the other to work. If I leave no slack in the raise linkage, then I have just enough travel to get up to F#. Then the string won't lower because there is no slack. If I adjust the collar so that there is slack, I can only get the raise to go up a half step. There must be a variable that I don't understand but I don't know what it might be.

richard burton · From: Britain

You need to alter the pedal travel;
Look where the pedal rods hook onto the steel.
There is an allen bolt that determines the pedal travel.
Unscrew it bit by bit until you get the F# raise.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Hi Richard... I have that screw backed out all the way.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Would a heavier string gauge help much? What do you guys use on your 4th string?

Steve Dodson · From: Sparta, Tennessee, USA

Henry, Get in touch with Jim Palenscar of Steel Guitars of North County. He's out your way somewhere. I'm not for sure how for apart you guys are. But you can reach Jim at 760-754-2120,or go to his web-site here on the forum. I'm sure he can help you out. Sounds like you may need to retune your changer a little.

[This message was edited by Steve Dodson on 18 December 2005 at 11:47 PM.]

richard burton · From: Britain

Is it snagging on the knee lever raise E-F?

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Richard..... Everything seems to be free and clear. I just can't seem to get enough travel and slack at the same time to get both changes to function.
I think my guitar might be a really early Emmons. The changer looks the same, as far as I can tell from pictures.
Could it be that my guitar is different from later push pulls? Maybe the lever on the end of the crossbar (the thing that the raise stop is threaded into) doesn't allow as much travel?

richard burton · From: Britain

Is the C pedal bottoming out on the floor, thus not getting the maximum travel possible?
Someone once had a similar problem, and it turned out that the steel had been moved from a hard floor to a deep pile carpet.
Worst of all, it was a ZB, and he had adjusted everything in sight before he realised it was the carpet !!

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Hi Henry,
before making any adjustment in the pull or push linkage, the changer should be tuned.

1. Loosen all the collars on the pull rod for string 4.
2. Set the steel on its legs.
3. Reach under the changer with your left hand and pull the raise finger against the body. Tune to F# at the keyhead.
4. Release raise finger and tune to E at the lower row of allen screws at the endplate.
5. Reach under the changer and push the lowering finger against the endplate. Tune to D# at the upper row of allen screws at the endplate.

The changer finger is now in tune. Check by pulling/pushing the finger by hand and see/hear if the notes are true (F#-E-D#).

Turn the guitar upside down in its case. Push the lowering finger against the stop and pull the raise to the right as far as it will go without moving the raise finger. Hold the raise rod while releasing the lowering finger and put a rod collar at the swivel and tighten it. Adjust the pedal travel for the C-pedal to pull the finger against the body.

You will have to readjust/retune the F-lever, as well.

Two possible problems:
1. If the finger for string 5 hits the body before string 4 reaches F#, all movement stops. Forcing the 4th finger fo move farther by adding more pressure on the C-pedal may result in breaking the 5th finger! Instead, give the 5th finger more slack (room between the swivel and the collar), even though string 5 isn't lowered and wouldn't - by itself - need any slack.

2. On strings that are raised and lowered, the raise rod hook should be one hole closer to the changer axle, than if it were not lowered. If your raise rod hook is now in the hole farthest from the axle, move it to the middle hole. If it's already in the middle, move it to the hole closest to the axle. This will shorten the throw, i.e. the length the rod has to travel to rotate the changer finger a given distance. It will also make the pedal slightly stiffer.

Any PP changer will raise the 4th string a hole tone. That change was standard before there even were PPs. If yours doesn't, something is maladjusted.

For a better description of how to tune the changer, look up the "Wilderness Guide": http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

Don't worry, you'll get it right. If I can do it, anybody can.

Rainer

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Remington, Sierra, Emmons PP, Fender Artist, Sho~Bud

Peter · Posted 19 Dec 2005 3:09 am

Rainer, as always, your elonquent explanations are great!
Thank you so much!

I am going to Europe after Christmas. Maybe I will come to Germany to say HI!

Peter den Hartogh

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Richard, thanks for the drawings. I understand a bit better.

I stared at the animated thing on Wilderness Guide until I grasped it.

Lubbock is the wilderness when it comes to steel guitars. Think I better stick with all pull.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Thanks so much for all the great info. I still haven't solved the problem. Tonight I'll have more time to work on it and I'll give you an update.

Thanks again..... Henry

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I ditched work and I'm back to the guitar. I've tuned the changer on the 4th string as per Rainer's excellent instructions. The changer has no problem making the pull. The crossbar end (the "cam" thing where the pedal rod connects) is bottoming out where the pedal travel adjustment screw is. I can only get a half tone raise out of
it before it hits the stop bar.
How much distance should I have from the bottom of the "cam" to the stop bar? A metal stop strip has been added and I wonder if it's restricting my travel. I don't think that's it, because it's only 1/16" thick and I think my friend who set up the guitar actually adjusted the thickness of the wood to accomodate for the strip.. Is there a different bellcrank that I should be using on this change? I read in another thread that someone drilled a second hole in their bellcrank, closer to the crossbar, in order to decrease travel.

Thanks.... Henry

richard burton · From: Britain

This is what it should look like with the C pedal up, ie, not pressed.
(ignore the second notch, it is non-standard and has no relevance to your problem)
The crank should be sitting right back, laying on the steel strip (which incidentally is standard).
There should be ample movement of the crank to achieve a full-tone raise.
Check to see if your C crank is sitting as in the picture.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Henry,
what's that 1/16" metal stop strip you're talking about? On my PPs the metal stop bar is 7/8" thick. If I'm right, only the earliest PPs used wooden stop bars (my oldest one is from '69). Does yours have a wooden stop bar with a 1/16" metal top? How thick is it altogether?

I must admit that I don't know what may cause your problem. I can raise E-F# with the necessary slack for the lower while using the hole in the raise finger that is farthest from the changer. The pull would be a lot shorter on the middle hole and even more so on the hole closest the changer. But I like easy pulls and don't mind the travel.

Regarding the "second hole in a bell crank" you are probably referring to this thread. It's a rather complicated setup that needs the "idle" bell crank on a lever cross bar close to the changer and an additional pull rod (or one short and one long rod). The purpose is to add the leverages of 2 bell cranks to reduce pedal travel. Drilling a hole in your 4th string C-pedal bell crank close to the cross shaft and attaching the pull there will have the opposite effect: you'd need still more pedal travel when you don't have enough already.

What hole in the changer finger is your raise rod connected to? Have you tried moving the rod closer to the axle? Do you have photos of your undercarriage? If you can't put photos on the Forum, email them to me and I'll put them up.

Rainer

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

My guitar is probably a 66 or early 67. It has a wooden strip for the stops. The metal strip is a modification. I don't think that's what's causing the problem.

Richard.... My pedal crank is oriented similarly to yours. It has a return spring on it. That shouldn't affect anything though. The pedal crank has about 1/2" of travel, from the bottom to the metal strip. That's with the adjustment screw removed.

Rainer... After reading your post I did my best to think rationally, and I think I now understand the mechanics of what you're saying.

I've got a couple more things to try. I'll report back soon.
Thanks again. Though I've not yet conquered this issue, I feel like all this information has really helped me to understand my guitar. Now I don't have to live in fear!

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I'm stumped. I can't think of any other way to pull the changer finger any further with the pedal travel that's available to me. For the time being I guess I'll reinstall the assembly that my friend devised. It's stiff, but it makes the change.
Bobby Bowman contacted me and was very generous with his time via telephone.
I'm wondering if the pedal cranks are not original. They don't seem to be as finely machined as the bellcranks. There aren't very many leverage variables and this seems to be the place to start.

Does anyone have any close up photos of early pp pedalcranks?

Thanks

Steve Dodson · From: Sparta, Tennessee, USA

Jim Palenscar owner of Steel Guitars of North County would be happy to help you. His # is 760-754-2120. You never know if you take it to Jim,you could get lucky and catch JayDee Maness there at the same time.

[This message was edited by Steve Dodson on 19 December 2005 at 10:27 PM.]

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Thanks Steve. I likely will give him a call tomorrow. He's about 8 hours away, I think, so I probably won't be driving down there anytime real soon.

richard burton · From: Britain

Henry,
If the crank is similar to the one in my photo, and still can't make the raise, it leads me to think that the wire hook that connects the changer finger to the pull-rod is in the wrong hole in the finger.
There are three holes in the changer finger.
Make sure that the wire hook is in the hole nearest the changer axle.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Hi Richard
The wire is in the hole nearest the top of the guitar. I tried the outer hole just to see if I was not thinking correctly. It wouldn't really do anything.
My pedalcrank is a little different than yours, I think.
Mine has a return spring attached and is shaped slightly different. I'd love to get a look at another pp. I don't know of anyone around here who has one.

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