The Steel Guitar Forum

I've been copping licks off the 60's Haggard albums. I keep running across licks that use the flat 7 while rocking the A pedal. I can approximate them in the A+B position with a half stop raise on the first string.

This works OK for most, but for something like the "Life In Prison" intro, it has blocking the 1st and 5th string repeatedly while rocking the the A pedal.

I'm having trouble nailing these licks consistantly. The hand position is tough to get any decent tone and I'm having trouble hitting the pitch consistantly. It really shows if I'm off at all while riding the b7 with any other note.

Any of you guys have easier ways of playing these licks?

Well--I installed a lever that lowers the 3rd string a full step with pedals down. Not only does it make a lot of those moves easier, you can also do some wicked reverse 3-4-5A~5 rakes.
BTW--this is a dedicated lever--if you threw it without the B pedal down it is not a usable note, intonation-wise. What guitar do you have and how many levers?

*<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 April 2006 at 10:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

Raise the first string with a knee lever 1/2 tone to G, then hit strings 5, 4, and 1 squeezing into pedal 1 with pedal 2 down, like the intro to "The Bottle Let Me Down."

Should I include some of this stuff in the new course?

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Gene,that is horrible that one of our bro's would call you out.Was that a first time? (ha-ha)Anyway,Moon does not have our 1st and 2nd string.His 1st is G#.He lowers this to G on some tunes such as Haggard's Bottle Let ME Down,Swinging Doors as well as others.I stole a pedal from Norm Hamlet that lowers (3)G#-G and raises(6)G#-A. I have the Day setup so I added this pedal in the 4th position so I can use it with the 3rd which raises 5&10 to C#. I don't even understand this stuff myself.I hope you can.I've heard Moon reply,when ask,"what does that pedal do Moon".Oh he says thats a pretty one! (ha)Regards, Fred

On the Buddy Cage site, created and maintained by JB Arnold, it mentions the X-lever:

"Buddy uses it a lot, and you can't really play Mooney stuff without it... There is a way to copy this sound wth the B&C pedals, but it's awkward."

"X Lever (LKV) = Raise strings 1 and 7 a whole step, string 2 a half step"
http://www.buddycage.net/tech/tab/index.htm

There are some Mooney licks that raise the first string.

If the X-lever raise the second string, how important is it for playing Mooney licks ?

Herb, what you describe is how I've been doing it. Sorry if this wasn't clear. It works fine for "Swinging Doors" where I don't have to keep pickin and blockin' the 1st & 5th string simultaneously. It's also on a half stop and I'm having trouble getting the right pitch consistantly.

If I could lower my G#, I'd be set. That'd be a lot easier to play.

John, I have Buddy Cage's "X Lever" raises on my 1st & 2nd strings (but not the 7th raise), but didn't see any examples of it on Buddy's site. I'll play around with it, but anyone have any clues?

<SMALL>There are some Mooney licks that raise the first string.</SMALL>

That's interesting since Mooney doesn't use the F# or D# on top. His first string is what's usually on the 3rd string of E9 -- a high G#.

------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Herb Steiner wrote:

<SMALL>Raise the first string with a knee lever 1/2 tone to G, then hit strings 5, 4, and 1 squeezing into pedal 1 with pedal 2 down, like the intro to "The Bottle Let Me Down." </SMALL>

I don't understand what pedal 2 does to strings 5, 4 and 1. Are you counting on cabinet drop for part of the effect?

You can get a similar effect on the open B7 chord position. Pedal 2 gives you the high 7th tone (A) on the 3rd string. The trick is to use the top 3 strings with the 2nd lowered to C# and the 3rd string raised to A. Then release the 2nd string knee lever to get the full tone move on the lowest note (C# to D#).

------------------
<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog </font>

This intro for "The Bottle Let Me Down" from Rebel Ricky's is where I got the idea that he raised the first string.

It must have been re-arranged for a standard setup - thank you for the clarification.

<TAB>
(intro over the 5 chord) (A) (A7) (A7/9)

1._______________|____________12R1/2_______|_____________________|
2._______________|_________________________|_____________________|
3._______________|_________________________|______10b_10b____10b_|
4._______________|________12______12_______|______10L_10L____10L_|
5.______10__12___|_12~12a____________12a~12|______10__10~1/2a10~a|
6.___10b______12b|_________________________|_12b_________________|
7._10____________|_________________________|_____________________|
8._______________|_________________________|_____________________|
(A7/9)

3.__________________________________________
4.__________________________________________
5.____10a___10~a___10~a___10~a__10a__10a~~10
6.____10b___10b____10b____10b___10b__10b~~~~
7.__________________________________________
8._10L___10L____10L____10L______10L__10L~~~~

</TAB>

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by John Lockney on 03 December 2005 at 09:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

I use a reverse slant on strings 3 and 5 with the A pedal to get a couple Mooney licks. I can usually find the notes on whatever tuning but the Mooney sound is all about his right hand and my right hand just doesn't sound like that.

Bob

Down 2 frets from the pedals down version (fret 10 for A7), you could use str 5 as the root, 2 as the third, 1 as fifth, and 3 with B pedal as the 7th, and lower the 2nd str a full step to do the usual A pedal horsing around (for the first lick). The end of the lick then is still in the same position, using str 5 and 6 (B pedal still down, A pedal rocking).

Mooney himself must have kept his left foot on pedal 1 for the G natural, while using the right foot on pedal 5, and rocking on pedal 4. Correct?

b0b
My use and mention of pedal 2 is shown in the example of Ricky's tab of "Bottle."

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

*<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 April 2006 at 10:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

Flat 7th? First string? "Mooney Lick"?

You mean this one? (In the key of D)

<tab>

1--------5(R)--5--------------------
2-----------------------------------
3----5(B)---------------------------
4-----------------5-----------------
5--------------------5(A)-----------
</tab>

Here's the <u>identical</u> lick...
(without that pesky first string raise)

<tab>
1-----------------------------------
2--------10--10(L)------------------
3-----------------------------------
4---10------------------------------
5-------------------10--------------
6-----------------------10----------
</tab>

You guys make everything so hard!

Gene my opinion is just like yours there is so many ways you can do things that sound exactly the same that people don't relize how wonderful sites are like this to help people learn to do things in different ways.That is why there is so many steel conventions to. What i mean is that I played the steel to Alan Jackson song, Im in love with you baby but I dont even know your name. I have come up with three ways to play the same Steel for that song then went to the rebel site and saw it there. It wasn't any where near what i was playing yet his sounds the same as mine does. I am sure it had to be the same with the older generation. But I got my guitar set up the way I play it which is close to the standard and some of Paul Franklins Ideas to. I always wished I could Move things around underneath my guitar the way them people did. But yet I am glad in a way that I don't know how. Cause if I did. I would probably spend more time unde the guitar and would never learn to play anything.

------------------

For Ralph Mooney's copedant in Winnie's book I believe Winnie said that Moon had some pedals and/or changes he wasn't divulging. I always got a kick out of that comment, especially when trying to figure out his steel break behind Waylon in "I'll go back to her".<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 07 December 2005 at 02:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

Donny, that 10th fret lick is not the same notes as the 5th fret lick, unless your 2nd string is tuned to D!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by b0b on 07 December 2005 at 02:42 PM.]</p></FONT>

b0b and Donny

Even though you might have those 5 same notes at the 10 fret, it's not the same lick because of the position timbre, and also the availability of the pedal changes on the 5th fret, such as squeezing into pedal A, tapping on pedal B, et al.

There's other Mooney licks available at the 10 fret, but the two positions are not the same.

First string 1/2 tone raise is "Pesky?" Uh, I don't THINK SO! It's a very common change, far more common than the whole tone raise everyone has been using ad nauseum for the last 5 years or so.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jeff Newman did it by pulling the first string with his left hand behind the bar.

Herb
I'd love to see a section on Mooney licks and their variations in the new course.
Bob

<SMALL>Jeff Newman did it by pulling the first string with his left hand behind the bar.</SMALL>

I do that from time to time since I don't have that change. It's not near as difficult as it sounds.

Bob- You'll notice I had an "L" on the 2nd string tab! That indicates lowering the 2nd string to "D", a move which most players now have.

Herb- You're right, the sound may not be quite as "whiney" because it's a slightly lower register, but that's a <u>good</u> thing! (According to those who hate "whiney" steel, anyway. ) Also, if you have the 6th string full-tone lower, that gives you the same effect as rocking the "A" pedal when using my example lick.

The reason I called the 1st string "pesky" is that most steelers seem in a quandry as to how to accomplish the half and full-tone raises on the 1st string...with different pedals, half-stops, using a slant bar, or pulling the string behind the bar. My alternate way, with a little practice, sounds fuller, and quite acceptable overall. (For me, anyway.)

I have the 1st string raises on different pedals, so it's no real issue for me. The example is to illustrate that there's usually a good alternate way to get most licks...if you really look for it!

Donny wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>You mean this one? (In the key of D) <font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
1--------5(R)--5--------------------
2-----------------------------------
3----5(B)---------------------------
4-----------------5-----------------
5--------------------5(A)----------- </pre></font>
Here's the identical lick...
(without that pesky first string raise) <font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
1-----------------------------------
2--------10--10(L)------------------
3-----------------------------------
4---10------------------------------
5-------------------10--------------
6-----------------------10---------- </pre></font> </SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that the note-wise identical lick would be: <font face="monospace" size="3"><pre> 1----------------------------------
2--------10(L)--10(LL)-------------
3----------------------------------
4---10-----------------------------
5-----------------------10---------
6---------------------------10----- </pre></font> I agree that it has a darker timbre.

Check out the Rebel site, 1988, Above and Beyond, I think that's Paul playing; with the tab. Works for me.