25 1/2 inch scale question

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 12 Nov 2005 9:37 am

This is for the 25 1/2 inch scale owners.
Did you guys notice any pedal action difference such as a slower pull or longer pushes to get to notes and chords? Is it harder to do faster pickin or does it feel about the same as the 24 1/4 on most everything.... reason I'm asking is because I am going to try out one this next week and don't want to be surprized or at least know I can fix the pulls without a lot more tension on pedals... this guitar will be an Excel Keyless. Thanks for any info on this in advance.

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 12 Nov 2005 10:37 am

hi rick,
in my experience, i notice no differences. to me is like playing a standard psg on a 24 1/4 scale. pedal action feels just the same as standard. if there are differences, i can't tell. i don't know... maybe i'm weird.

EXCEL KEYLESS D-10 W/ 8 & 9...
1974 EMMONS PUSH PULL D-10 W/ 8 & 4...

carlos

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Nov 2005 10:39 am

Rick, provided the guitars are set up the same, I think you'll find very little difference.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Nov 2005 11:03 am

The pedals on my Sierra Session (25" scale) have a longer throw than my Williams (24 1/4" scale). There are a lot of other mechanical differences between the two guitars, though. I can't say that the scale length is what causes the difference in pedal action.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 12 Nov 2005 12:04 pm

The longest scale~length I've ever seen was 25” and that was way back at the beginning of Sho–Bud in ’57! I know some 25” scales are mfg'd today, but; I've never seen any, any longer!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
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Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 12 Nov 2005 5:49 pm

Big John, just a friendly reminder that you have seen and heard my 25 1/2" EXCEL. lol
The mechanical set up of the rods control the tension, length of pull etc. With everything else the same, string gages, etc, the string being "tighter" will respond to the pulls faster and more accurately than on the shorter scales. Ed Packard is the one to really converse with about this subject.
I have had to go to a very thin sole shoe to feel the pedal tension on my steel. It would be almost impossible for me to go back to the shorter scale because the "looseness" of the strings is much more noticeable after playing the longer scale. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Some are pleased and some are not-just personal preferance etc.
Good thread.
Bill Stafford

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 12 Nov 2005 6:07 pm

I just thought it would be a longer pull because the string length from roller nut to finger is a little longer....but Bill has noted that the the strings have to be tighter (same gauges I'm using now) to bring them to pitch for the E9th open.... thanks guys for the info.

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

[This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 12 November 2005 at 06:10 PM.][This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 12 November 2005 at 06:16 PM.]

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 13 Nov 2005 2:17 am

And "tighter means brighter". The overall string length is shorter with the keyless configuration. This is one of the reasons there is less string breakage and allows for a longer scale. I bet a lot of us can remember how great those 26" scale Fender Stringmasters sounded??? (We are working our way up to that, hopefully).

Bill Stafford

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Nov 2005 3:46 am

Bill..... I am currently using a .012 on my 3rd (G#), a .014 on my 4th (E) and a .018 on my 5th (B) for a fatter sound. Does this mean I would probably have to go down a gauge on these 3 strings to be safe so they won't snap on me for the longer neck?

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Nov 2005 6:59 am

I put a keyless head on an old Sho~Bud. After I did so I had to retune the raises on the pedals because they were sharp, particularly for the strings that were longer. As far as I'm concerned, the shorter the string the less the pedal travel.
Erv

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Nov 2005 8:29 am

Erv... That's what I was thinking too. Maybe staying with a little larger gauged string will require a shorter travel for the pedals... I guess I will just have to find out next week. I like really fast pulls but with easy pedal push... My Kline has this and hopefully the Excel will be this way.

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 13 Nov 2005 9:33 am

Many years ago I bought my first NEW pedal steel. By that time I owned an old used Sho-Bud Pro II with rebuilt mechanics.
I chose the only brand that was offering a keyless design with a longer scale. There were other reasons like the very clean appearance of the mechanics and the aluminum body which were appealing to me, coming form a technical background.
Anyway, the keyless design allowed the builders of that particular instrument to offer a 25" scale and still have a shorter over all length of the strings which should by logic and phisics translate into a shorter and/or easier pedal or lever pull. But that perticular guitar had what I would in my opinion call a bad choice of rotating points (fulcrums) and other design flaws which resulted into an action which was longer and harder than on my old Sho-Bud and most any other guitar I came across later.
But yes, a guitar with a keyless design and a scale length of up to 25 1/2" should have a shorter and/or easier pull than a key kead guitar with a 24" scale and longer, but before you buy into the idea you should also test the particular instrument to see if the builder has been able to effectively use that phisical advantage to create a shorter and/or easier pedal/knee lever feel and travel.

... J-D.

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 13 Nov 2005 10:16 am

*Sigh.* Where's a Physicist when you need one? Anybody seen Dr. Robinson around here?

Alright, well, I am not a physicist, however, I disagree with Erv. I hypothesize that the longer the scale length, the less pedal travel is required to bring a string of a fixed mass up (or down) to pitch.

My reasoning: observe what happens when you tighten a string to pitch when you first put it on the guitar. As you turn the keyhead (or allen wrench, as the case may be), the pitch slowly raises. As you continue to continue to increase winding the sting, you'll notice that the pitch begins to rise much more rapidly the more you turn the key. When you're near pitch, very fine adjustments can make relatively large differences in pitch. Thus, it is a non-linear, exponential relationship. The distance a string is pulled has a greater effect the greater the current tension already is.

Given that the tension for a string tuned to the same pitch (frequency) and of the same gauge (e.g., a 0.011 string) is greater on a 25.5" scale length than a 24.5" scale length, and given that change in tension is exponential, I conjecture that it takes less pedal movement to bring a string to pitch on a 25.5" scale guitar than a 24.5" scale guitar.

Now, given this, it will be more physically difficult to bring the 25.5" string up to pitch, because you have a much larger increase in tension required. After all, that pedal doesn't move itself--you do it, and according to Newton's third law, for all increase in tension in the string, you must provide all force to do so.

So, for the same mechanical setup (same position of fulcrums, etc.), the 25.5" pedal will feel much more stiff. Of course, the engineering solution to this is to change the fulcrum position, such that greater pedal movement is required to pull the string for a given distance. This would explain why guitars with 25.5" scales can maintain a comfortable feel to the pulls.

This, however, is not the full story. The full length of the string matters as well.

For more information, try http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html.[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 13 November 2005 at 10:34 AM.]

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Nov 2005 10:51 am

Wow Chris... That definately warrants a beer. Since your not here, I will accept it on your behalf... ha ha
But on the other hand, if I bend a string on my Statocaster it will raise the pitch a few notes but if apply the same bend on a mandolin it will raise the pitch much higher. (Shorter string length)...what's going on with that?

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

[This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 13 November 2005 at 10:57 AM.]

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Nov 2005 11:21 am

Chris, I just went to the website you posted on string tension and pitch.... result was ... I needed another beer.

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 13 Nov 2005 12:57 pm

My 25.5" keyless Excel plays like buttah and the pedals can be set up pretty much anyway you like without any undo travel or extra effort. One thing that's not been mentioned which some guitars have including Excels is the use of raise assist springs.When properly tensioned,they come just short of raising the string all by themselves. And just like power steering,the added pressure of stepping on a pedal does the rest.Therefore you can setup the pedals and levers with whatever resistance you desire from quite a bit to next-to-none. 6 hole bellcranks and 6 raise/5 lower capability lets you spread out the leverage to suit any possible taste - even on the most loaded guitar.
I set mine up with very little slack,an effortless and fairly short stroke except for pedals that raise strings a whole tone or more and might be half pedaled. On those,I have the same easy stroke but a bit more travel - it's easier to find the halfway mark that way. That,plus Excels body flex compensators made going from my Sierra Session to the Excel like going from a Hummer to a Ferrari. Did I mention it sounds great,weighs 38 lbs and packs up into a tenor sax sized case....BTW,I use standard U-12 gauges and never break any strings.
-MJ-

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 13 Nov 2005 1:42 pm

Michael, I just shot you and Email.. hope you get it tonight before I leave tomorrow a.m.

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Rick
Kline E9th/S-12, Session 500, Goodrich L-10k

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 14 Nov 2005 5:38 am

Could not have said it any better Michael.
Many variables here and most have been covered. The many more variables of the human and personal "requirements" often dictate how a certain brand instrument will play-easy, hard or stiff or whatever. Alvino's Sho-Bud had seven pulls on the first pedal. It was next to impossible to push that pedal unless you were playing from a stand up stool, as he did. When I was with Sierra we built him a new eleven string utilizing my low bottom E note and manipulated the leverage hook-up to make the many pulls a little more acceptable.
The EXCEL, with its greatly improved changer mechanism capability, will allow the player many positions of leverage adaptability to personally "tune" the mechanical system per his feel, etc. But, I have never desired to go into the undercarriage to do this as it was much easier and faster than any steel guitar I have ever had to date. More accurate also, and much more stable in the tuning process.
Bill Stafford

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Nov 2005 6:20 am

That settles the argument for me. 25" or nothing.

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 14 Nov 2005 10:07 am

Charlie, you can have much more fun with another half inch.
Bill Stafford

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Nov 2005 10:18 am

That's a 'straight line' if I ever heard one.

Nah . . . won't even GO THERE.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Nov 2005 11:59 am

I'm going to have to be more careful with what I say in future.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 14 Nov 2005 2:30 pm

Here are some pounds tension vs. string gauge as a function of neck length. The wound strings may not behave the same as the plain ones...I made no correction to MOD E for the wound strings in these calc's.

If the pedal/lever travel was adjusted to the same amount for each neck length given, then raising the strings a halftone would vary in force like the pounds tension given for each neck length...assuming no "helper" springs. Lowering is another story.

FYI...I think that the breaking tension (straight line pull) for the 0.011" G# is between 33 and 36 pounds.

The longer the scale(neck), the more the tension required to get a given gauge string to the same pitch.

It still all boils down to inch pounds and pivot points. The "feel" differences are small for the three neck lengths given; pedal length probably means more.
<pre>NECK => 24" 25" 26"
STRING Calc'd STRING STRING STRING
STRING NOTE Inches TENSION TENSION TENSION
# GAUGE Pounds Pounds Pounds

1 C# 0.016 26.00 28.20 30.50
2 G# 0.011 27.50 29.80 32.60
3 F# 0.012 26.00 28.10 30.50
4 E 0.014 28.00 30.70 33.00
5 B 0.018 26.10 28.50 30.70
6 G# 0.022 27.70 29.90 32.50
7 F# 0.024 26.00 28.30 30.50
8 E 0.028 28.20 30.60 33.00
9 B 0.037 27.00 28.40 30.70
10 G# 0.044 27.60 30.00 32.40
11 E 0.054 26.20 28.40 30.80
12 C# 0.064 26.00 28.25 30.60
13 B 0.070 24.70 26.80 29.00
14 E 0.112 28.20 30.60 33.10
</pre>
[This message was edited by ed packard on 14 November 2005 at 03:15 PM.]

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 14 Nov 2005 3:03 pm

I own a 25" scale Sierra, and wanted to add something to this discussion.

Per Ed's chart of string tension, you can use the typical string gauges (.014 for the E) on a 25 scale guitar and not experience breakage.

However, the tone of strings at the higher 30 lb tension is different, the overtones do not sound as sweet to my ears. If I recall the theory correctly, this is due to "inharmonicity", ie the harmonics are sharp. The tighter the string the sharper the harmonics.

For a 25 scale, you can simply go down a gauge to hit the 26-28 lb range, ie use a .013 for the 4th string, .017 for the 5th string, etc. This is what I do.

Also, the sound of an .013 string tuned to E on a 25 scale at 28 lb tension will be different than a .014 string tuned to E on a 24 scale guitar at 28 lb tension since the thinner string can vibrate in a more ideal fashion.

So anyway, even if you have a longer scale guitar, you might want to use smaller strings which will cancel the effect of the longer scale requiring more tension, which was sort the original point of this thread.
[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 14 November 2005 at 03:06 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 14 Nov 2005 3:32 pm

Well ... as Tarzan would say ...

Tension Good ... Stiffness Bad

Here is a nice essay on Tension/Stiffness Ratio

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Aiello's House of Gauss


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