Relevance of Instructional Materials

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Nov 2005 9:54 am

A recent topic in the Steel Players section digressed into a debate on whether traditional country-oriented teaching materials are relevant for modern players interested in other styles of music. I'd like to continue that discussion here, if I may.

The basics of major and minor chords are the same in all forms of music. A "country E9th" course teaches these things in the traditional context of a major scale. This is valuable information regardless of where you are heading with the instrument. It doesn't matter what songs are being played - "On Top Of Old Smokey" is just fine - the point is that you need to know how to find your chords and harmony scales on the instrument.

A lot of modern music uses different scale modes. News flash: almost all of those scales use exactly the same note sequence as the scales you learn in traditional country. They just start on a different note of the scale, and consider a different chord as the "one". So again, the knowledge of scales and chords garnered from country courses is still relevant.

I agree that learning specific intros, solos, etc. from old country tunes can seem useless to the rock/fusion/world musician. Without a good understanding of the scale/chord theory that spawned those solos, you may be just spinning your wheels learning "A Way To Survive". But once you know your basic positions, these classic solos provide insight into new directions and positions discovered by masters of the instrument.

I'm sure that any pedal steel teacher worth his salt could spend a good hour showing you the secrets locked in a couple of Buddy's Ray Price rides. It's not really about duplicating Buddy Emmons' parts to play the song - it's about understanding the positions he chose and how they interact with the chord/scale structure of the tune.

The richest sources of knowledge for the pedal steel happen to use traditional country music as their base reference. That fact does not tie the knowledge itself to the country genre. The knowledge is specific to the instrument, not to the songs.

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Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 6 Nov 2005 10:42 am

Words of wisdom there b0b! Man, I sure wish I would have realized this 25 or so years ago when I first started to learn the PSG.

Instead, I totally glossed over all of the available materials, incorrectly thinking that they just were not at all relevant. After all, I was playing in rock and country rock bands, so what possible good would this old, stale country stuff be to me? Instead, I concentrated on peeling David Call, Rusty Young, Buddy Cage, David Lindly licks off of records. Definitely the wrong move! If it wasn't for the Boot Camp week at JeffFran in the late '70's, I would have gotten nowhere fast with the instrument.

Now, returning to the instrument after a 20+ year layoff, I find that I'm looking at all of the country and swing training materials in the way b0b describes. There's no magic formula or solution, however, I find this material an invaluable insight into the genius of the great players. For me playing any of this, the genre of the song, now takes a back seat to actually learning -why- it was played like that.

Also, I can't recommend highly enough Mike Perlowin's great book on practical theory. Combine that with the PSG supplement that he is so kind enough to supply, and it's the best foundation a steel player could ever want!

Cool post b0b!

-Larry W

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 6 Nov 2005 11:04 am

Right on, right on, b0b!

As a guy who tries to "think notes" while learning, I sure would like to see more PSG instruction using standard notation with the tab, as in the Manual of Style and a few other books.

Music is music, and I think learning ANYTHING on the instrument can only help your overall knowledge of the instrument. Please forgive my flair for the obvious

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Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 6 Nov 2005 11:19 am

Very well put b0b,
perhaps you should also post this under "All newbies Please read" as this is just the type of thing that many of us over
look being afraid to "over simplify" when we are first starting out! I myself have only been at this a few years now and somehow I took to it almost too easily, blameing my background in dobro and lapsteel playing "by ear" for makeing the foray into pedal steel playing an easy thing to do without knowing the WHY, which makes it all relate to itself. I am just begining to see the relationship between
what this one and that one plays and how they all relate to a few simple positions on the neck. Sometimes having a good ear can be NOT such a good thing.Almost like
a bridal. Thanks for the insight.

Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 6 Nov 2005 11:24 am

b0b and Larry,

I must preface this by saying that I love traditional country and being a third generation professional steel player I have very deep country roots. I must also preface this by stating that I am looking at this topic from the perspective of a new player, not a player that has been playing 10 years and wants to continue his or her theory studies.

Fundamentally I agree with your post, however I have found that when a person gets turned onto steel guitar by Robert Randolph or Paul Franklin on the dire straits stuff, etc. etc. he does not want to learn the old stuff, and in fact quickly loses interest if I try to show him any traditional country licks. Same goes for my guitar students. They want to play music that they hear on the radio that THEY like. What gets them going and practicing alot is being able to show there buddy this cool new song that they just learned, not on top of old smokey to use your example. I believe, and know from personal experience, that people quickly lose interest music because they are forced to learn how to read music and forced to play nursery rhymes before learning anything that they are interested in and can sink their teach into.

To help tie this to your post, sure the traditional music's "theory" relates cross-genre, but should there not be teaching materials out there that is geared more towards these rock/fusion world players? Something that will keep their interest while learning? Why should they be forced to dig through music that is not appealing to them in order to learn how to play the steel guitar?

Like the music or not, the steel guitar is being used in all styles of music today. I would venture to say that more people are exposed to the steel guitar today than ever before in the history of the instrument. This is great. There are also some really affordable and great playing student model guitars on the market today, so why not "hip up" some of the instructional material to go along with the trends?

Just my thoughts.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 6 Nov 2005 11:34 am

Some time ago I was stuggling with finding some passing chords in learning to play chord-melody with some liturgical/gospel songs. When I got Winnie Winston's Book, I made some discoveries about fretboard positions with partial chords that were right in front of me, but I didn't see them before.

I remember clearly that the Red River Valley tab taught me how to go seemlessly into and out of the B6 position. It also taught me some hidden passing chords that I had not previously identified with the song itself.

A lot of though went into the tabs in that book. I still refer to it. It sure helped me with learning the fretboard, and how to think like a steel player.

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Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 6 Nov 2005 12:13 pm

During my teen years my parents 'forced' me into doing grades One to Eight (Oxford), playing Classical music. At the time I hated it, as I made up my mind that I will never p[lay this kind of music. Looking back after all these years I cannot thank them enough for giving me that sort of background in music. I never went back to the classics, but the lessons and theory learned are been put into use in the music I do today. Getting to know the basics on PSG makes for good ear training and getting to know the fretboard. Afterwards you can, with confidence, apply that knowledge to the music of your choice.

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Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 6 Nov 2005 12:25 pm

But why do the basics have to be taught using traditional country music? Can they not be taught using another style. In your case, could you not have learned theory by learning Van Halen instead of classical? Would you have been inspired to practice more by playing what you would like to play instead of what you were forced to play?

Not arguing, just curious. This is a cool thread.

Jeremy[This message was edited by Jeremy Moyers on 06 November 2005 at 12:26 PM.]

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 6 Nov 2005 12:33 pm

If I may quote our host b0b:
"The Knowledge is specific to the instrument not the songs"[This message was edited by Larry Robbins on 06 November 2005 at 12:34 PM.]

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 6 Nov 2005 12:45 pm

Jeremy, you make a very valid point. There are more "classics" in the world than those in Country or Classical music. For those of our Forum Family who are adept at writing/developing instructional material, please consider some "modern" (or at least younger, more popular) material outside of the Country genre.

Make no mistake, I LOVE country, and also have very deep roots in it. But, Jeremy's right. Our courses would attract many more students were they able to study using the songs they most enjoy hearing.

Though I agree that the steel has been shown to be an incredibly versatile instrument, the growth must continue, and evolve, if the steel is ever to take it's rightful place as an important and "legitimate" musical instrument.

Let's open more "steel guitar doors" for our kids to enter as they explore the musical universe.

Remember how the Beatles began the popularization of the 6 string electric guitar?

Just my opinions.

Larry...but the interest is germain to the material under study.[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 06 November 2005 at 12:47 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 6 Nov 2005 1:08 pm

Using Van Halen as a vehicle for theory would be OK but it would assume the beginner has the chops to actually play the stuff. The song riffs would work, but the soloing is another story IMHO.

Music that is more harmonically and melodically simple gives you a good grounding ("Oh, Hank's yodel is a major 6th!"). You CAN use any musical vehicle to explain theory (or vice versa), but it is a lot easier to start with triads, I IV V progressions etc. I know the Van Halen stuff is also down to earth a lot of the time; there is a ton of great stuff to learn from that music about triads, riffs, etc. but there is a lot of tricky stuff too, in terms of explaining the basics of diatonic harmony, with pedal point etc. - just my .02

A lot of ex-shredders come to Berklee to learn more about music overall- WHY what they played works. Armed with that knowledge, they can shred more effectively

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Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 6 Nov 2005 1:11 pm

Jeremy and Mike:
Yep, I totally agree guys, it would be *great* if there were modern materials for the PSG. I'd be first in line for some of that stuff myself! Imho though, the point b0b is making, (or at least the one I'm agreeing to) was one more along the idea of lets make the best use of what is available to us. There's not much out there for guys that play rock and blues. I'm finding personally, that what I'm learning from the old tab stuff, is helping me play the sort of stuff I want to now. Essentially it's helping me to build a foundation on the instrument, so I can then apply the knowledge to the stuff that interests me. Although I read music (classically and jazz trained trumpet decades ago), I never applied it to the PSG--something I'm looking forward to learning.

cool tread guys!

And Jeremy, (yes, I'll admit this here!) RR was the guy that got me back into playing again.

I do agree that we need some more like him to keep our great instrument alive.

John: Good points as well. In the few months I have been "back in the saddle" with the PSG, I've learned more about the instrument than I did in 6 years of playing years ago. I think our instrument needs more guys like you and Mike Perlowin! --Cool website you have there btw!--

regards to all,
-Larry[This message was edited by Larry Weaver on 06 November 2005 at 01:18 PM.]

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 6 Nov 2005 1:42 pm

All are good points and well founded/explained...and I agree for the greatest part.

I guess my thrust is that I'd like to see instructional material updated more frequently...maybe "updated" is the wrong word...how 'bout modernized? Young people are attracted to modern music. And although we have many teriffic courses avaiable that are worth their weight in gold, wouldn't modern versions be more palatable to the youngsters.

Back in the 70's when I taught 6 string, I used the structure from an excellent, standard course for lessons, but I used currently popular music for the lesson examples. It cost me some time to keep the song list relevant and current, but those kids learned lightning fast because they loved the music. Their parents were amazed and said the kids would practise for hours. I believe the songs made all the difference.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 6 Nov 2005 2:34 pm

I sat down on Friday to fool around with Lloyd Green's "Bars of Steel" in my Anthology of the Pedal Steel (that I purchased new

). The first three pairs of notes alone opened up a whole new way of doing runs. That 5th and 8th -string combination that Lloyd uses, it is right there in that intro....
I'm on the road now doing a few shows, and last night I must have used that one lick from "Bars of Steel" in at least 5 or 6 tunes. A fresh approach to solos and a different tone came from glancing at that book for about 5 minutes. I'm playing an awards show tonight, and have a solo mapped out around what I learned from "Bars of Steel".

So that's one lick from one song in a book packed with licks. The Anthology of the Pedal Steel is enough instruction for some people's lifetime.

The photos alone are worth the purchase.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 6 Nov 2005 2:36 pm

I agree totally. My daughter has played classical violin since she was a baby. (Suzuki method) and now is learning guitar. When i tried to teach her guitar she got totally bored. She said the songs i was showing her weren't interesting. So now she is practicing tunes from her own genre and she is all excited. The particular songs need to be more current for a young person or it won't hold their interest. Of course the theory is the same and the scale structure is related to any song young or old. But a young mind needs to be inspired by material that holds their interest...[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 06 November 2005 at 02:37 PM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 6 Nov 2005 2:54 pm

It's all about songs. Why else play, except to win a chops competition? It follows that using songs to learn would be beneficial, as some have said. I've been playing 2 yrs, the coolest was playing(somewhat) Panama Red out for the 1st time, along with Pop a Top,Crazy Arms, and yes, a million years ago, Stairway to Heaven,Alright Now,My Generation, and a thousand other SONGS. Nothing else in music matters to me.JP

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Nov 2005 3:08 pm

But why do the basics have to be taught using traditional country music? Can they not be taught using another style. In your case, could you not have learned theory by learning Van Halen instead of classical? Would you have been inspired to practice more by playing what you would like to play instead of what you were forced to play?

Joe Wright's rock courses take that approach. There's nothing wrong with starting with a different genre of music. If you feel that strongly about it, write a course.

But also consider that your E major scale at the 7th fret becomes a rock scale at the 10th fret. Once your students "get" that relationship, there will be no stopping them.

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Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 6 Nov 2005 3:32 pm

Quite true, again, Bobby. I appologize if I mis-understood your point.

I thought the topic was aimed more at starting players who should learn the basics of music theory at the same time they learn the pedals and knees. That was my focus. I think beginners will go a lot further if basic theory in given to them in the most exciting context possible.

Once off the ground, so to speak, application of the theory can, of course, take on a more personal direction...be it country, jazz, rock or what have you. But everyone should get the basics down right out of the gate.

...what a great thread this is!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Nov 2005 3:41 pm

The general idea behind this discussion is a hot debate in all forms of teaching. In my own learning, I completely agree with b0b. But for teaching, I'm not so sure.

I teach (not music these days) for a living, and look at it like this, whether it's teaching music or math. One needs to supply a "hook" to get most people excited about learning anything. Research on learning shows this type of "hook" is important, and not everybody can supply it themselves. I absolutely agree that the very self-motivated person can start out learning "Red River Valley" and spend hours every day practicing scales of various types and their application to songs. My attitude is that if one is really committed to learning, one should be willing to use the resources that are available. I'm not against "cool" resources, but if that type isn't available, I'm going to try to find what I need in whatever is available.

But my experience is that, these days, most people won't enjoy that enough to really want to practice/study much. If one can find something the student thinks is "cool" to play which also has embedded within it things that require understanding of deeper musical principles, this is the best way to get students to go after that deeper understanding. I'm always amazed how hard people will work at something otherwise completely stultifying, if they can see the tangible result. I remember, as a kid, spending hours every day, for years, throwing a ball up against the back of the house just because I loved baseball so much.

So when learning something myself, I try very, very hard to go the first route of trying to see the musical/theoretical ideas in anything, and not insist that everything be "cool". But when I have tried to teach music, math, engineering, or computer science that way, it has generally not worked for most students. So I try to find interesting things that students can relate to. But I keep hoping that they will see that this puts too much onus on somebody else - in reality, learning simply requires taking initiative for it themselves.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 6 Nov 2005 3:41 pm

Something that needs to be addressed is the age of the student. Many steel players are already adults when they start playing and are mature enough to appreciate and understand the benefits of learning the instrument from material they might not otherwise be interested in playing.

Children and adolescents cannot be expected to show such maturity and understanding.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 6 Nov 2005 4:09 pm

OK guys!!not having any training in music,i learned to play by ear.
I've had a hard life playing steel,learning on multi-chords,A AND E tunings.
never felt comfortable with minors,yep i could slide down and mash A pedal,ect. but didn't really know what i was doing.
Then i got into Gospel music at church,and wow,so much,i was lost all the time.i learned to find them,but still LOST.
I was talking to a steel player one day,and got so embarrased,he said well you have a MINOR pedal on steel. I;ve came a long way in 40yrs. but sure would have been nice to have known music knowledge!!!
Yep,i play country and gospel, some of the fancy stuff still blows me away.
Moral of the story,its hard for me to figure all the stuff out,even tho i use it.
Crazy yep i guess.but learn the right way to start with so much better. farris

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 6 Nov 2005 4:28 pm

I'm thinking of children and adolescents in particular.

Not to disagree...but, of course, any endeavor requires disciplin to reach any degree of mastery. I don't think age makes learning something new any easier. Sure life's lessons teach us that the more you apply yourself, the more you'll get out of it. And, some will put their nose to a grindstone and forge ahead no matter the price...and that's to be commended. Yet, I think more thought needs to be given to the melding of music theory and pedal steel so that a beginner will be drawn into, and persuaded to persue, this most diffucult instrument.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 6 Nov 2005 5:20 pm

It is interesting that most of the instructional material available for C6th tends to be Jazz oriented -- sure a lot of these are jazz standards, but it is definitely not country ------ SO why is all the E9th material predominantly traditional country!! I know for a fact that any of the students I have would really leap at some modern, rock type instruction if it were more readily available, and as Jeremy pointed out - they would stay with the instrument more readily.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 6 Nov 2005 6:20 pm

Music is music, and I think learning ANYTHING on the instrument can only help your overall knowledge of the instrument.

Agreed with fully! Case in point: I recently found myself running a BIAB track of (of all things) Gloria Gaynor's disco hit "I Will Survive." Trying to play it sounds like hell, of course, but I know there is something--technique, progression, etc.--that I will get from it. Don't know what yet, but so what!

Use everything! There is something everywhere to take somewhere else!

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 6 Nov 2005 6:26 pm

I started learning one year ago and can understand the necessity of 'exercises' in the beginning just to learn the chord grips, but after that I had a hunger to play a real song, with some nice harmony. And I'm still hungering to know more theory and how to fill up a simple two-string melody that I don't have the tabs for, with all the fullness a 7th chord can give, or a diminished one, or augmented, etc. If music is food for the soul then maybe the instruction could be like a recipe book, the theory explaining what each ingredient does to increase the pleasure.

I received "Silent Night" tabbed in two-string grips last December and now I'm picking that up again to learn how to add more stings, pedals, and levers to those baby chords to give the song a more pleasing and fuller sound. Hopefully, I'll learn some theory doing that. It'd be nice if an instructional book would do this for me, step-by-step.

I couldn't agree more that a student needs to begin with something he loves. So give him 'Stairway to Heaven' and one scale to learn and it'll make doing the scale easier. Its not a hard concept. Vegetables just taste better with steak.

I love this Steel Guitar. I wish this was all I had to do.