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Topic: LKL angle of attack; methods for comfort |
Duane Reese
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 9:59 am |
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Have any of you ever felt like your LKL and you left knee just don't get along as good as they could? Like the direction your knee wants to move it and the direction it wants to move aren't exactly the same? Well that's what this post is about...
If you sit at the steel kind of over to the side (about 15th fret) in the usual fashion, it's easy to see that unless you have a pelvis that is 2.5 feet wide, your left leg is not hitting the LKL on E9th straight on if you lever is on a cross shaft running perpendicular to the guitar.
Now if you play an old Sho-Bud, for example, this isn't a problem because that shaft the LKL is on is not perpendicular to the cabinet, but is on an angle similar to that of you leg and there are ball joints connecting, but since the LKR on those seems to be fairly close to the center line of the cabinet, that's important because your leg has to be far enough forward to hit the LKR, and as a result it's going to hit the LKL up on your thigh a little bit from you knee. If the shaft were straight it'd feel like you were going to break the lever off.
Now as for other guitars, (I don't want to just play Sho-Buds) this probably explains why the LKR is often back farther towards the back apron - that's how it is on my push-pull anyway. So what you do there is you just position yourself so that you hit the LKL quite directly on the knee and the LKR is easy to hit too. This method works, and takes down mechanical complexity quite a bit, but with a narrow lever it's just not quite luxurious. It's no the end of the world but it just seems like there's got to be a better way.
Of course there's other factors that make the differenct too, like the width and shape of the lever, the dimensions of you leg, and the width and positions of the levers over there, to name a few, but I just wanted to get people's take on this...
Give us your perspective, share your ideas. Thanks![This message was edited by Duane Reese on 31 October 2005 at 10:06 AM.] |
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Chuck Hall
From:
Warner Robins, Ga, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 11:04 am
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Duane
Don't mean to hijack your post but the RKR is the one that gives me fits. It seems so far in. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 1:16 pm
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I gotta agree with Chuck, RKR and the volume pedal are the miserable pair to coordinate. Seems my right knee needs to be about 10 inches in diameter. Maybe if I tape a big towel to my knee...
[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 31 October 2005 at 01:19 PM.] |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 1:43 pm
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| Well on a lot of guitars the RKR has a little tab thingy, like a paddle, that extends back farther just for that reason. Try sitting father up in so you can hit that lever decent, and see how akward it is for the LKL - that's a really bad position in my experience. |
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Bob Kagy
From:
Lafayette, CO USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 6:45 pm
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Duane, not completely sure I'm understanding your post, but if the LKR is hurting your left knee, maybe what I did is helpful -
I got some waterpipe neoprene insulation tubes at the hardware store, cut it to length and slipped it over the LKL. It cushioned the knee contact enough to make it pretty comfortable.
bk |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 10:15 pm
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Bob K.,
The problem is actually the LKL (outside left) on E9th (tipically the E-raise lever) and the angle at which your knee hits it. Your left knee, when heading to the side to move that lever is not moving flush with the guitar but kind of to the side and back; the lever, unless it's on an old Sho-Bud, is probably going to be on a cross shaft that is perpendicular to the guitar, and therefore its own movement will be flush with the guitar; when the two meet your knee's angle of attack does not match the lever and unless you hit it direct on with your knee (but instead just above it slightly on the thigh) it tends to chafe, not move well and is annoying. It doesn't hurt, but it's just not quite right. If you try out one of those old Buds you'll know what I mean, but then again it seems the wider the lever the better too, because it has more surface for your knee to slide against. If it's a narrow little lever then it kind of grabs your knee and it feels like you are going to break off the lever... Kind of. Your knee is trying to move it the way it moves, but kind of push it to the side of how it wants to move too.
Anyway, I thought I'd try to open up a dialogue to see what the best solutions to the problem are. For most cases, it seems a wider lever or perhaps an extension similar to what you usually see on the RKR would be most practical (imagine trying to adapt a new shaft in there at an angle and linking it up... Though I'm sure it could be done.) I may be spoiled from playing on a Sho-Bud for so long too... |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 31 Oct 2005 10:59 pm
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I always sit with my Right-Leg pointing straight forward at a 90° angle to the body of the guitar. My left-knee touches theLKL just behind my kneecap. I'm really l©©king forward to my new guitar, because; it will have (2)-LKL's on the E9th. neck! 
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 4:24 am
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I'm kind of amazed that the issue of ergonimics in psg's isn't taken into consideration more, rather than just building on what's been done already.
If I sit with my buttons at the 15th fret, mash the AB pedals and activate the LKL--well, I might as well be sitting at a MultiKord. Doesn't feel right.
It seems there should be more modifying of pedal and lever locations; or make their lateral positions adjustable, like race car pedals. |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 7:09 am
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| Quote: |
| I'm kind of amazed that the issue of ergonimics in psg's isn't taken into consideration more, rather than just building on what's been done already. |
See that's what I thought too! |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 8:41 am
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I agree with considering ergonomics when choosing a guitar. If you fit at a guitar better, you will be able to play it better...
In my case: I have owned two MSA D-10's in the last couple of years and recently switched to a Sho-Bud D-10. As tone is subjective I won't go into their tonal differences.
The MSA's are great guitars for tuning, stability and engineering but I never felt comfortable with the pedal and lever placement, and felt the string spacing is too tight for my large hands. The Sho-Bud fits me better. The E9 pedals are more in line with my left knee; The angled LKL lever works great, and the wider string spacing works much better for me. My wife and bandmates have commented that I sound better on the Sho-Bud, and I definitely feel like I am playing cleaner.
I think that ergonomics are a big part of playing enjoyment.
[This message was edited by Grant Johnson on 01 November 2005 at 09:14 AM.] |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 9:12 am
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Ed Fulawka certainly takes ergonomics into consideration when he builds his steel. His LKL mount is on a crossbar like others; but he has the actual lever angled in that mount> wish I had a picture but I don't.
Yes if one sits to the right and angles their left leg back towards the pedals; than the knee going left will naturally move towards the back corner of the steel; and having the knee hit flush on a lever is certainly more comfortable> but there is a lot of give and take in many areas of many steels.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 01 November 2005 at 09:13 AM.] |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 9:17 am
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So what's wrong with having a two-and-a-half-foot wide butt?
MORE CARBS FOR STEELERS!!!!!! |
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 9:20 am
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Duane,,
I've only got 5 knee levers under my guitar but I haven't experienced to many problems like you'r discribing.
LKL, and LKV are fine, had to adjust a little slack in LKR before it actually starts engaging so when I rock my foot over for BC pedals it doesn't begin to engage.
Had to add 4" horizontal extentions to the back for both RKL, and RKR. Other than that everything fits just fine,, now to learn to play the thing!! LOL..
Larry
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Emmons S/D-10, 3/5, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"
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Duane Reese
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 10:05 am
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| 2 1/2 wide butt - heh heh! Man that would come in handy but I'm afraid I just don't have it! I do have an idea for a solution to the problem on my push-pull to make it better... As discussed earlier, on the RKR of and Emmons there is a little extension that goes back so you can hit it. Now imagine this: what if you had the same thing only going forward on the LKL? I'll bet you that'd be just dandy. Might be a while before I can get what I need to try it, but heck - your knee (well, my knee) could just slide right onto it like nothing. |
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Bob Kagy
From:
Lafayette, CO USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 3:40 pm
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Duane,
My left knee hits the LKL at the angle you describe (I also had an old Sho-Bud and understand what you're talking about).
My left knee hits my newer guitar in the way you describe.
So my solution was to cushion the LKL with fairly thick neoprene water pipe insulation. It has the advantage of slipping on and off easily.
Disregard if I'm off target, but it's sounding like the same problem I had.
Hope this helps,
BK |
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Kirk Hamre
From:
Huntington Beach, California
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 5:10 pm
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I've only been learning to play about 6 months and I noticed right-away on my Emmons that the LKL does not follow the natural swing of my leg. This is more of a problem for us skinny guys as we don't don't have much meat on our legs, just skin over bones. Apparently, Sho-Bud noticed this too and corrected the problem by mounting the LKL lever and mount at an angle that follows the natural swing of your leg. I've never played a Sho-Bud but it sure looks like the answer to all this. I am amazed that no other manufacturer has incorporated this type of lever into their guitars. The only other place I believe I've seen this style LKL lever is on a few Duane Marrs refurbished Sho-Buds. If Marrs has new LKL angled hardware that I could addapt to my Emmons I would buy one. It looks to me like I could use my Emmons lever and mount, just angle as needed, screw to cabinet and install new ball joint and linkage as needed?
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2001 Emmons Lashley LeGrande II, Model LST10L, E9th Single 10 String on a Double Frame with pad, 3 Pedals, 5 Knees, RKR is a double stop. 2005 Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp. Boss GE-7 Equalizer. Sho Bud Volume Pedal. BJS Bar.
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Mark Fasbender
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 5:33 pm
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Yeah its easy to undrstand duanes problem if youve played buds, when duane got his marrs it had a straight LKL and i played it and thought I was gonna bust it off. He played my pro 2 and then went home and angled the lever on his marrs. Much more in tune with the way my leg moves anyway. Doesnt bother me as nuch on a P/P. By the way duane,how do you like your E lowers on RKL where they belong? (opinion).
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Got Twang ?
Mark
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Duane Reese
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Posted 1 Nov 2005 8:04 pm
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Some stuff is easier for sure, and since it's such a nightmare to change copedents on a p/p, I think I'll keep it this way.
Anyway, yes I did re-mount that LKL on my Marrs-Bud, but it's correct that you will need a connecting rod with ball joints, otherwise that connecting rod will flex like crazy and you don't want that. Jeff Surratt has seen my handywork and I told him I haven't decided whether I want to hang with that method or buy a shaft for the LKR to extend it back farther, and then just put a flapper on the LKL.
I kind of like the idea Ricky was talking about with the Fulawka and the shaft-mounted, non-coaxial lever. I wonder... Could that same lever fit on other shafts or be made to? |
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Kirk Hamre
From:
Huntington Beach, California
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