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Topic: My 4th string won't drop a half-step! |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Mar 2018 8:40 pm |
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My LKL lowers 4 and 8 from E to D#. Well, it's supposed to - while the 8th is lowering properly the 4th only gets half way there.
I'm in the middle of a run of 'Patsy' and, to put it mildly, it's a nuisance. I can avoid that pull but it's inconvenient.
How can it change all on its own??? It was fine on Saturday. Now, if I try to increase the 'lower' on the hex tuner, it eventually flattens the string's open pitch!
Emmons Legrande with counterforce, by the way.
I suppose it's too much to expect a steel-tech to by living in Key West? 😂
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 5 Mar 2018 9:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| I suppose it's too much to expect a steel-tech to by living in Key West? |
Last I heard they had all taken their money and moved down there. 
Roger, if you've changed nothing at all? Even your 4th string? And nothing is over or under tuned? That includes any and all raises or lowers for string 4. And the lower return compensator if you have one? And the split tuning screw is not holding you off? You could have a bellcrank that's cracked. That would be the bellcrank that lowers string 4. Could be a lot of things. None of them serious. But if you're not over or under tuned? The split tuner is my number one suspect.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 4:00 am
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All I changed when I got down here was to put new strings on 3 and 5 as a precaution, so that's not it.
Many months ago I did set up the split-tune so I could use my C pedal and my 4th string 'lower' to get a perfect 'F' but my LKL has worked okay since I did that.
I don't know why I bothered with that split-tune - I've never used it!
When I get to the theatre later today the first thing I'll do is back the screw out and see if that does it.
Bobby to the rescue again - thanks!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 4:22 am
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| I agree with everything said above. In addition to a cracked bellcrank, check to make sure that the crank has not simply loosened on the cross shaft. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 5:04 am
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Thanks, Jon - duly noted.
Here's a mystery. I have two rods on my 4th string 'lowers'. Is one a compensator? I didn't know I had one!!! I've had the guitar from new but it could, I suppose, have been added at one or other of the services I have put it in for.
How do I adjust a compensator (if that's what I have)? It's possible that I turned it last night by mistake when trying to adjust the actual 4th string-lower!
Whatever the extra rod on my 4th string lower is (it has a black hex-nut), it doesn't appear to move when I engage my KL.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 5:05 am
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A crank on the loose can cause a lot of problems.
Just ask Jon's neighbors!
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 10:08 am
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| Quote: |
| Here's a mystery. I have two rods on my 4th string 'lowers'. Is one a compensator? |
Roger unless you're lowering the 4th twice? It's a sure bet it is. After your last post I feel sure it's the split tuner that's holding you off.The splits on a Legrande are very sensitive. So turning just a hair in either direction can make a lot of difference.
The Lower return comp tuner should have a little rubber bushing between the nylon tuner and the changer finger. And should not travel when the 4th string lower is used.
If it is out of adjustment- over tuned? You'll need to back it off till you feel a little slack in the rod.Tune all your raises. Then the 4th string lower. The 4th should come back a little sharp. Run IN. On the comp till the string returns to true pitch after the 4th has been lowered and released. The lower return comps are also very sensitive.So just a slight turn can make a big difference after you've run it up to where it meets the changer finger.
I rushed through this. Hope it makes sense. PM me if you need me.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 10:44 am
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Thanks, Bobby - that was very clear.
I'm going in to work early to fool around with it and see what happens.
As always, your generous help is appreciated. I'll post the results later!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 11:11 am
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10-4. Again, I would start by backing off the split tuner just a hair. That should get you going. As for the lower return comp. Most Legrandes will tune out and play even if the comp is slightly over tuned. But to really get it right. Or by the book. When time allows. Check and make sure the lower comp is not over tuned. If it is. Try what I mentioned above. That should put you on your mark.
I can tell you in advance. If the 4th is coming back a tad sharp after being lowered. The comp is not over tuned. Maybe this tid bit will save you some time.
If I had it in front of me. I could tell you in 5 mins or less. But I'm sitting here arm chair mechanicing.
Hope you get it working and enjoy your gig.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 7:41 pm
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Many thanks, Bobby - it was the split-screw!
I backed it out and I could tune the drop easily! Even though I'm pretty sure I tweaked the compensator by mistake there are no ill effects. The lower comes back right in tune when I release the KL.
I'm delighted. The Emmons dounds great again and I'm back in business.
Now the trick is for me to learn from this and to know what to do should it gappen again. I'm still not sure why it moved on its own, though.
Thanks for all responses and especito Bobby who's always so patient with me.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 3:51 am
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Excellent. Glad that's sorted out.
From my own experience of drilling and tapping for a split I learned the difference between well machined (the few splits that my guitar came with) and not so well machined (the couple that I added.) Mine were crude enough to allow the screws to walk, just from vibrations, and are finger-adjustable. The factory splits have tight enough tolerances that they require a wrench. Lesson learned.
There was once a forum inquiry about whether there is any substance that can add 'stickiness' to such a situation. But aside from lok-tite to totally freeze the screw in place, I don't recall a solution to a loose-in-its-socket screw that still retains adjustability. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 5:18 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Excellent. Glad that's sorted out.
From my own experience of drilling and tapping for a split I learned the difference between well machined (the few splits that my guitar came with) and not so well machined (the couple that I added.) Mine were crude enough to allow the screws to walk, just from vibrations, and are finger-adjustable. The factory splits have tight enough tolerances that they require a wrench. Lesson learned.
There was once a forum inquiry about whether there is any substance that can add 'stickiness' to such a situation. But aside from lok-tite to totally freeze the screw in place, I don't recall a solution to a loose-in-its-socket screw that still retains adjustability. |
How about a tiny rubber o-ring?
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 8:34 am
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
How about a tiny rubber o-ring? |
I'm not seeing what you're seeing, Lee. The screw would need to be tight against the stop for the ring to serve as a lock washer of sorts. But the screw in finger-restricting position would normally not be pressed against the ring.
The only solution I can picture for a screw sitting too loosely in its tapped channel is something like teflon plumber's tape (which now that we're talking about it I think I'll try when I get a chance). |
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 9:35 am locking
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| Use a drop of high grade silicon. It will break loose if needed easily re applied. This is what the Ge jet testing labs use for anti screw backing offs |
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Randy Schneider
From:
SW New Mexico, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:04 am
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The split screws that a previous owner added to my guitar have a small section of spring that sits between the screw head and the changer housing. I would imagine that helps keep a little tension on the screw and keeps it from moving.
Do the factory installed split screws not have such springs? Forgive me for asking -- being pretty new at this, I haven't seen very many guitars! |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:20 am
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Yeah! That might to do it! (well maybe---my drill & tap was so dodgy that this alone might not be enough).
No, I have not seen this used. As I said, when expertly machined, it may not be necessary, with tight tolerances providing sufficient friction. I never thought of trying spring tension. Thanks for the idea. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:26 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
How about a tiny rubber o-ring? |
I'm not seeing what you're seeing, Lee. The screw would need to be tight against the stop for the ring to serve as a lock washer of sorts. But the screw in finger-restricting position would normally not be pressed against the ring.
The only solution I can picture for a screw sitting too loosely in its tapped channel is something like teflon plumber's tape (which now that we're talking about it I think I'll try when I get a chance). |
Okay...how about a stack of tiny rubber o-rings?  |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:28 am
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| Now we're talking. Except let's make them metal. And we'll call them springs. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:29 am
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| Loctite 221 is a low strength threadlocker, it will hold a bolt in position, but can be dismantled if necessary |
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Skip Ellis
From:
Bradenton, Fl USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 4:54 pm
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Roger, where are you doing "Patsy"? I'm doing it again in Sarasota May 30 thru (probably) middle of July.
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2022 Brook Lyn, 2014 Martin 000-18, 2022 Ibanez GB-10, two homebrew Teles, Evans RE200 amp, understanding wife of 49 years. 'Steeless' at the moment |
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