I Need Two Different F notes

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Looking for some ideas.

I tune JI E9, and use the A+F position a lot, so I tune my 4th string F note flat to get the JI third with the C#. No problem there.

I also use the G#-G change a lot, and the G is tuned "sharp" to be JI with the 5th string B. The 4th string E is in tune with the B, for a nice JI minor chord. Yes you have aim low (play a little flat of the fret) simliar to how you aim high for the A+F position but that is also no problem.

Here's the problem. If G#-G is engaged and I use the F lever to pull E to F for a G-B-F dom7 on strings 3456, the F is way flat, since the pull is only 80 cents and I am aiming low.

Could I put a lowering compensator of some sort so A+F is an 80 cent pull and the F lever only pull is the full 100 cents? As an added benfit, if F only was 100 cents this would make the B-F-G# diminished chord on 3456 more in tune also.

Is there another way?

IF the guitar has the allen screws for splits, could I use those somehow?

[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 13 September 2005 at 01:01 PM.]

[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 13 September 2005 at 01:35 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think this is why some people lower their F# strings to F.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Scott
As you have discovered, when you use a non-equal temperament, some intervals sound better but others sound worse. Many intervals become unusable if you get too far from ET. Maybe you will just have to avoid the interval of G to F (E sharp).
I think it would be a mistake to add more "compensators" or micro pulls to solve a particular problem, because that would introduce new tuning problems.
One solution is to tune closer to ET than you do now. Is your E to E# pull really only 80 cents? That's really narrow. Try 85, 87, even 90. Same with your G# to G pull.
Also, if you play GBF on strings 654 or 358, you can slant the bar a bit to get closer to ET intervals. But that won't help with most voicings.
Another approach is to learn to appreciate the unique color of each interval and chord. On my meantone system, the G to F (E sharp) interval is the most out-of-tune compared to the piano, and yet to me the open string G7 chord has a sweetness that is very attractive (sometimes).

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Use a Wound 6th string.
Ricky

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I solve this problem by using a compromised JI tuning. I tune the chord thirds (G# string, Eb lower and C# raise) to 437. Theoretically, I should tune the F raise to 434 to be consiustant, but then the note is too flat to use for otner purposes, so I also tune it to 437.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

7-Limit JI allows for 3 separate b7 tones:



7/4   969 cents


16/9  996 cents


9/5  1018 cents

The 7/4 is often used in blues, and it's the one you're closest to with your F. You should adjust the tuning of your G note to be no more than 31 cents sharp of your F.

The B to F interval is a tri-tone. There are two to chose from, but I'm sure you want the narrower one:



7/5  582.5 cents


10/7 617.5 cents

I think that the best balance you can hope for is to tune the F 18 cents flat of the B, and tune the G 13 cents sharp of the B. The G-B-F chord should sound pretty good, but the F will be a bit sharp of JI in the A+F position. A+F will be closer to an equally tempered major chord.

This is basically what Mike Perlowin is doing, as he described above.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
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Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

By the way, here's what I do:



F  = -10 cents


E  =  +5 cents


C# =  -5 cents


B  =  +5 cents


G# =  -5 cents


G  = +10 cents

It's not JI, of course, but the numbers are easy to remember and it doesn't sound too bad.

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Adjusting my tuning method is certainly a option, if I were to do that I would use meantone, in fact my back neck is tuned G6/E7 (via a g-G# raise), which is exactly the same scenario, just inverse. In my meantone, the thirds for the G6 and E7 "sides" are both nicely in tune.

I was hoping there is a mechanical trick that is available such that the F pull is different when my G#-G pedal is depressed. After thinking about it some more , I don't think a normal split off the G#-G pedal will work, since the E pitch would move when hitting only the pedal.

Stephen Gregory · Posted 14 Sep 2005 12:32 pm

This is the BIG problem with JI. As you expand your use of voicings, chord substitutions, harmonies etc., this problem will only get worse. This is why JI is not the norm amongst othe instumentalists. It is also not "kicked around" unmercifully on other forums. The closer you can get to ET and live with it, the better,especially if you plan too venture outside of 3 chord tunes and 2 strings at a time harmonies.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

After y'all get that problem solved, tell me how to get it sounding in tune with a fiddle player to the right of me, and a lead guitarist with a set of .009's and a string-bender on a Telecaster to the left of me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Herb; pour epoxy on the b-bender, cut the nines in half, and sabotage the violin pickup; enjoy one blissful night, and then get out of town.

I don't know if this is appropriate since it's not what was asked; but it's been brought up here, so I'll comment.

Since trying out Jeff Newman's offsets, I've kept tampering with the intervals until it's almost back to ET.
Yes, the JI intervals are sweet; but I keep running into conflicts. And for me, it's easier to keep ET maintained.
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Charlie
I can't play, but I can tune.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Herb;
I'd just tune up [‘in tune’ ‘as usual’] and then inform the rest of them that they are just slightly O.O.T.!

Then let them worry about it!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
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