The Steel Guitar Forum

First and foremost, this is not a push/pull vs. the world thread. I am considering buying a push/pull. Their merits vs. drawbacks have been stated and debated, cussed and discussed at length. I’ve read about pros and cons at length. I’ve talked to other players. A push/pull proponent recently told me that every steel guitar player should own one push/pull, just so you know whether they’re for you. Others say it’s best to just buy modern, all-pull guitars and avoid the headaches and frustration.

I realize no one can make this decision for me. That's not what I’m asking. I’m not trying to beat a dead horse or a unicorn. What I am looking for is for key points to consider; facts and opinions derived from experience, not innuendo. Push/pull proponents and opponents are encouraged to comment. Please, just keep comments as objective as possible.

Admittedly, I might be over-thinking this. Maybe I already have all the information I need. However, there’s a lot of time, effort, and money involved here. I would not be posting this, especially in this much detail, if I was thinking about buying a (insert favorite all-pull brand here). I’d like to be as informed as possible going in. It might be that someone will bring up a point that I have overlooked, forgotten, or have failed to consider.

It is often more important to know what we don’t know than it is to know what we know (or whatever I just said). So here is some information you might need, along with some questions, the answers to which might help:

I have owned pull-release and all-pull steels. I currently own two all-pulls. I have done some work on my steels, adjusting pulls, making some copedent changes, and the like. I’m far from an expert.

I have played push/pulls on a couple of occasions, but only briefly. I’m not afraid of a push/pull, well not much, but I do not have any (zip, zero, nada, the null set) experience with push/pull mechanisms.

I am generally patient and analytical when it comes to troubleshooting. I don’t just start twisting stuff to see what happens. I’m not afraid to ask questions. I once fell asleep lying on my back under my steel, studying the undercarriage.

I live in Texas where there are apparently several good push/pull mechanics who can hopefully help if and when needed.

True, False, or It Depends: A properly set up and adjusted push/pull plays just as “well” as an all-pull steel.

True, False, or It Depends: Push/Pulls, when properly set up and adjusted require no more, and often less maintenance than all-pulls.

True, False, or It Depends: Push/Pull tuning is as stable or more stable than all-pulls, conditions being equal.

Push/Pulls I find for sale are invariably not set up with my copedent. Is it realistic to have a good technician reset the copedent? If I find a push/pull with action and playability to my liking, is it better to apply the “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” principle and learn to play it the way it is? Of course, I’d then have different steels with different copedents, but that would be for me to deal with.

I am willing to travel a reasonable distance to play a steel. If I see one advertised that looks really good but is too far away, is it worth taking the risk of buying sight unseen after conversations with the seller?

Maybe most important, is there anything else I should consider but don’t know enough to ask?

You may email or PM me if you don’t want to post here. PM me your phone number if you think it’s best to talk and I’ll call you on my dime.

Thank you for taking the time to read this ectremely long post. I sincerely appreciate any input you are willing to provide. If it appears that this is a leap worth taking, I’ll likely jump in. If not, I think (hope?) I know myself well enough to realize that discretion is the better part of valor. If nothing else, maybe this will help me and others in the same position organize our thoughts.

Fire away, forum. Ater all, I asked for it.

I haven't come close to playing all the all pull guitars being offered, and I do have an all pull that sounds pretty good, a Rains. But a push-pull Emmons remains my primary gigging guitar.

TONE: The tone of the push-pull cuts through the mix more than any all-pull guitar I've ever played. The Rains comes close, but the Emmons is still the #1 choice. It's sort of like the difference between a Les Paul and a Telecaster. A Les Paul can sound really good when playing at home, but when you get with a band it can get lost in the mix. Not so with a Telecaster. Not a perfect analogy, but somewhat so.

TUNING STABILITY: My push-pull Emmons is the most stable PSG I've ever owned. Once you tune a string or pedal it is much more likely to hit the pitch you set it at every time. All pull guitars seem to wander, some a bit, some a lot. I do less tuning with the push-pull.

DURABILITY: My PP Emmons keeps on working despite being subjected to my limited mechanical abilities. It's a very road-worthy instrument.

PEDAL NOiSE: The PP has a significant amount of pedal and lever noise. None of that noise seems to come through the amp. It's certainly not an issue when playing gigs. If you are trying to record, you'll need to isolate your speaker cabinet/amp so that sensitive studio mics are not picking up the clatter.

ADAPTABILITY: If you like to experiment with your copedent, you will be frustrated with a PP. It is much harder to make copedent changes that are simple on an all pull guitar. Also, a push-pull does not lend itself to some of the modern pedal changes. But if you have settled on your tuning, and it's relatively standard, it's a great guitar.

Paul,

I don't think pedal and lever noise are an issue, unless they just clatter to the point of distraction. One of my all-pulls isn't all that quiet, even though the steel plays very smoothly.

I haven't changed my copedent in a couple of years. I do lower my 6th string. I understand it's doable on a p/p, although different from an all-pull. I'm used to that change and don't want to eliminate it. It's likely a deal maker/breaker. Everything else is very standard.

Thanks for the input. It's exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

Jim Cooley wrote:Paul,

I don't think pedal and lever noise are an issue, unless they just clatter to the point of distraction. One of my all-pulls isn't all that quiet, even though the steel plays very smoothly.

I haven't changed my copedent in a couple of years. I do lower my 6th string. I understand it's doable on a p/p, although different from an all-pull. I'm used to that change and don't want to eliminate it. It's likely a deal maker/breaker. Everything else is very standard.

Thanks for the input. It's exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

.

I've had the 6th string G# to F# on all 5 push-pulls that I've owned (2 of which are still in the herd). You won't get it to split but it works well.

My RKL has the 1st & 2nd string raises, 6th string whole tone lower plus C to B on the back neck

Jim,

Not a Push/Pull export by any means but I did just acquire one as part of a package deal in very good shape. My understanding is that it is a 1980 model and my original intent was to probably sell it. However, after restringing it and playing at home I quickly understood the attraction to these guitars. The tone is really something and while my all pull guitars sound really good this is just different.

Even though I haven’t had it long, I would tend to agree with Paul’s comments. I have not played it in a band setting yet as it does need some copedent changes before I do that. With all that said, I plan on having those changes done and now plan on keeping it all though my pocket book would suggest otherwise.

Also, with no other lower on the 6th string I would think that change could be accommodated.

Good luck,
Jeff T

I am not a push/pull die hard as I have never had a chance to play one, and have never heard recordings where their tone blew me away compared to, say Buddy E. on his Zumsteel, or Paul F on his Franklin, etc. I am convinced by people whose opinion I respect that, properly set up, they are no more problematic than any other version of these beasts we play. But to me the answer is simple - you live in Texas. Can someone near him with a P/P offer him the chance to try one out? Living in the remote corners of the steel guitar world, I've never had an opportunity to try a steel out before I bought. But seems that would be pretty simple in Texas!

I didn't like having to reach under the guitar to tune my F lever. It's tricky when you have multiple raise notes on a string. To some people it's no big deal.

Also, Emmons guitars are just too big and heavy for me. That doesn't bother a lot of people, but I'm not a young man anymore. I can't drag around 60 lbs like I used to.

They aren't easy to work on, especially if you want to change your copedent. That's part of the price of spectacular tone, I suppose.

When I was first in the market for a pedal steel guitar, my good friend noted that a VERY common phrase used in the PSG world to tout any particular instrument was "sounds just as good as an Emmons". Never heard that said about any other make.
Q.E.D.

True, true & true, in my experience. There's just something about them...a certain thing they have unto themselves. Either it does it for you or it doesn't, but it's worth a try if you're curious about them. If you don't like it, you most likely won't have a problem selling it.
As far as the notion that you're limited by not having splits or as many changes as you can on a modern all pull, I refer to a good quote about that I saw on the Forum once....with a p/p you can play less but sound like more.
I really like my Super Pro, but when I sit behind my p/p my thought is... oh yeh... there it is...
JMHO...

PS... no problem lowering the 6th string a whole tone.

Shortly after I got my PP I remember setting it up side by side with my Rusler, a D10 lacquer body guitar. I played one and then the other. My wife's comment was the Rusler looked like the more expensive guitar, but the Emmons sounded like the more expensive guitar.

PS: I also lower the sixth string to F# with no problem, using a plain string.

Push pulls can't do splits. That's a deal breaker for me.

If you find one with the copedent you are used to, go for it. They are awesome. The tuning process is different but you will get used to it quickly. Like bob said, THEY ARE HEAVY. I'd say go for it. You won't regret it.

b0b wrote: They aren't easy to work on, especially if you want to change your copedent.

Well that kinda depends Bob. I think some people make a bigger deal out of the P/P mechanics than need be. It's like anything, once you understand how and why they work things get way easier. Understanding how a P/P works is 90% of the work, after that just go for it.

Yes, they are heavy (I'm old too)
Yes, they are harder to balance IF you load em up with tons of knees and changes...
Yes, they have an amazing tone
Yes, they stay in amazing tune
Yes, they play harder than an All Pull most the time but now always.
Yes, parts are expensive and some are hard to get
???, if you require lots of splits go all pull. It is possible to get a split on a P/P but it's not quite the same as you might expect. Splits didn't seem to bother Buddy Emmons much when he played his P/Ps (food for thought)

One of the things I always liked was a P/P kinda pushed back on the player which makes you try a little harder in some cases. It also inspires different things from different people.

A P/P might not be for everyone but I enjoy them a lot as I enjoy my all pull Infinity too. Same reason I own a Tele, Strat, Les Paul, and 335! I like the differences and inspiration each gives me.

My 2 Cents

Mike Scaggs wrote: Splits didn't seem to bother Buddy Emmons much when he played his P/Ps (food for thought)

A P/P might not be for everyone but I enjoy them a lot as I enjoy my all pull Infinity too. Same reason I own a Tele, Strat, Les Paul, and 335! I like the differences and inspiration each gives me. My 2 Cents

+1!!!!

Listen to Buddy Emmons CHRISTMAS ALBUM. if you have a chance. Great tone, in my book and done on an all-pull, EMCI. I also believe he played some C6 on an all-pull SIERRA. Stevet

Mike Scaggs wrote: Splits didn't seem to bother Buddy Emmons much when he played his P/Ps

If I could play as well as him, I might not need them either.

Mike Scaggs wrote: Splits didn't seem to bother Buddy Emmons much when he played his P/Ps

Mike Perlowin wrote: If I could play as well as him, I might not need them either.

HAHA!, same here buddy

Lots of great food for thought here. You don't know how helpful this is. I had reservations about posting this, because this topic has been hashed out so many times. I'm glad I did, though. I've also received several PMs. All y'all's (a little Texas lingo) replies have been very beneficial and constructive. It's exactly what I hoped for.

Please keep your replies coming. What a great resource!

Johnny Cox wrote:
First of all, nobody can get the 68 blade sound except Buddy Emmons when he plays the blade. Contrary to popular beleif, all P/Ps don't sound great.

Buddy Emmons wrote:Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.

Herb Steiner wrote:It's a combination of all the materials and mechanics used in creating the instrument, as well as the techniques used in assembling the instrument, and dependent on who did the assembly.

And I'm not joking. All of those factors matter. Which is why two Emmons Originals, made in the same week, could possibly sound different from each other.

Richard Burton wrote:I put three videos up on Youtube a while back, playing the same song on three different steels (Emmons push-pull, Denley pull-release, ZB all-pull)

Virtually no difference in any of them

Bobby Lee wrote:I think that if they still made push-pulls, everyone would be complaining about them. It's hard to get a push-pull adjusted right, and today's modern copedents with multiple raises, lowers and splits just make the problem worse.

Along with my other (all pull) guitars, I've had a p/p for about 15 years, but rarely play it. I probably took a beating on a trade to get it, but I wanted to see what so many were raving about. In short, it had a nice high response, but it didn't have the solid mid and bottom I was used to...it sounded "thin". This thinness or treble emphasis is what I credit when someone says p/p guitars "cut through the mix" better. It's just treble that has that "cutting" tendency, and I think the ZB and Fender had the same quality.

By the way, the best p/p sound I ever heard wasn't Buddy playing, but Sonny Garrish when he played "Sweet Lorena". I couldn't get that sound from my p/p, and it was mechanically noisier than anything I'd played, so it just went in the closet. I had a long talk with Randy Reinhard about p/p guitars, and specifically his wraparound p/p. Buddy was quite jealous of that guitar, and dubbed it "the horn of plenty". It was one of those one-out-of-thousand exceptional guitars. That made me remember that both Buddy and Bobbe had mentioned previously that not all p/p guitars had "that sound".

I suppose there have been few really scientific studies on the design of pedal steels. Most of what we know, or what the builders think they know, has come from trial-and-error experimentation. Trouble is, we can't agree on anything. Bobbe said, in effect, if the legs vibrate, it's not good. Charleton said, on the other hand, that it's a good sign when you can feel vibration in the legs. Ron Lashley used to say the "wrap" neck didn't really help the sound. And Buddy thought the "wrap" created some of his finest-sounding guitars. The old MSA guitars were thought to have a bad sound because of their weight, yet the old Stringmasters and Rick's had great tone and sustain, and weighed a ton! Some experts say the neck adds nothing to the sound, others simply refuse to use (cheaper) wood necks.

Do you see what I'm getting at? When even the "experts" can't agree on hardly anything...where does that leave the rest of us? Well, I know where it leaves me. I really don't care what anybody likes, or what anybody else plays. It's their choice, plain and simple. By the same token, don't try to tell me which guitar sounds or plays the best. Fifty years ago, there might have been a "leader" in this race. But right now? Nope. Just buy whatever you like and play it.

While you don't have split tuning, you have a unique feature that no other changer has: "raises win". This gives you some interesting effects that you can't get on other guitars.

For example: with your E strings lowered, press B+C. the 4th string goes to F#, making a big beautiful 9th chord. That note is F (and usually out of tune) on an all-pull guitar - not nearly so useful.

b0b wrote:
For example: with your E strings lowered, press B+C. the 4th string goes to F#, making a big beautiful 9th chord. That note is F (and usually out of tune) on an all-pull guitar - not nearly so useful.

That is how I make the minor chord with the major 7th that I use on the song Harlem Nocturne. I have a split in the 4th string so the F note is in tune.

Douglas Schuch wrote:I am not a push/pull die hard as I have never had a chance to play one, and have never heard recordings where their tone blew me away compared to, say Buddy E. on his Zumsteel, or Paul F on his Franklin, etc.

Interesting...






They may be a bit more tedious to understand but there are many here that don't understand an All Pull equally. I have no issues with either the Legrande II or the Push Pull regarding tuning, string breakage, whatever...There is however a tonality on the Push Pull that is different than the Legrande which makes me play differently.

IF you are not a person who has some mechanical know how,then probably steer clear of the Push Pull but that doesn't mean you are not going to have similar issues with the ALL PULL guitar. There are plenty of players/owners who have difficulty with those as well. These issues are not isolated to only a Push Pull

All D10s have some weight. It's not just the Emmons guitars. Some a bit more some a bit less.

Pick your poison !

My apologies to whoever was first to post this, but it would seem to apply here. In spades.

I believe it was the great Herb Steiner who once said something like "whichever steel guitar says 'come over here and make music with me' is the one you should own". I've been on the search for that instrument for decades. My current stable is pretty dang good and from time to time, they do beckon me to make music with them. A few years back, in a moment of weakness, I sold the push/pull that was an absolute hoss. It was an early cut-tail (and of course it was black). I regret selling it to this day. I did make a pact with the buyer that if he were to ever sell it, I would have first dibs.

My take away is to try out several push/pulls. If that tone speaks to you...go for it!
TC

A photo from when the stable was full. I learned a lot about push pulls and they are very special beasts.

A push-pull has a sharper attack when you pluck a string. Every all pull guitar that I have ever played (by no means all of them) sounds a bit muted by comparison. No amount of turning up the treble changes the attack of the notes. Same thing applies to Teles and Les Pauls.

Having said that, PF's Franklin certainly has the bell like quality of a push-pull.