Tuning for beginners

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 2 Aug 2005 7:38 am

Hi.

I'm just beginning to learn pedal steel, and I need to know what the best Copedant is for beginners to learn on. I've heard it's the U10 Copedant, but if anyone has advice otherwise, I'd be glad to hear it.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 Aug 2005 7:48 am

Talk to your grandfather and follow his advice.

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 2 Aug 2005 8:09 am

Now I think about it, that's probably a very good Idea. Thanks.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Aug 2005 8:18 am

The best tuning to learn on depends on what type of music you want to play. There are currently 4 major types of tuning. The E9, for Nashville style country; the C6, for Western Swing and Jazz; the universal, which is a 12 string tuning that combines the E9 and C6; and the E7 Sacred Steeler tuning, for gospel/blues. Most steelers learn a 10-string E9 first. But if you have no interest in country music, there is no reason you couldn't start on one of the other tunings. There are variations on all of the above (the U10 is one), but it would seem to be best to learn a standard tuning first, then branch out to variations. For one thing, there is much instructional material available for the standard tunings. The Carter site shows all the standard tunings above. Also, Bobby Lee, who runs the Forum, has posted a bunch of copendants. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 August 2005 at 09:20 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 2 Aug 2005 8:52 am

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 08 December 2005 at 06:50 AM.]

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 2 Aug 2005 11:14 am

I see. That's some pretty useful info. No need to worry about not using any of them, though. I enjoy all those types of music. Particularly country.

Now here's another question.

How difficult is it to tune a steel? How time-consuming?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Aug 2005 12:02 pm

E9th is the best tuning to learn on.

It takes less than 5 minutes to tune a pedal steel with an electronic tuner. It takes a lifetime to learn how to play it in tune.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Aug 2005 12:45 pm

Can anyone enlighten me to the U10 tuning?
Sounds interesting.

Josh Watt · Post by **Josh Watt** » 2 Aug 2005 1:24 pm

b0b, I think that's the scariest thing I've ever heard. I have a feeling it'll be worth it, though.

That reminds meof aJoke my Grandpa told me. I asked him how long he'd been playing steel.

"Well, about 2 years, I guess" he said.

"Wow. And you're that good already?" I said.

"Yeah, but it took me 52 years to learn." he said.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 2 Aug 2005 10:22 pm

Listen to your Grandpa, Josh, he's tellin' the truth...

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Aug 2005 2:58 am

I have a different idea: a new tuning.

Being a beginner is a great place to start fresh. I didn't learn a thing from my Red Baron (except that, as Larry Bell says, "... or it can be a royal pain in the a**!"), so I'll be starting over with my Carter Starter, and propose changing the bottom four strings to
E
C#
A
E
Kind of an A9/6. It works with the levers.
My own little 'universe'al.

They don't make strings thin enough for what I'd like to do with those top two 'crazy' strings. Lower the D# to D?
Raise the F# to G? At least it forms a B chord, but I'd rather have it all linear, something that I can play non-pedal diads on top.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Aug 2005 4:49 am

The Carter website has an excellent tuning chart.

Good accurate tuners are plentiful.

I recommend the DT3 or GT12 Korg.

It's a lot simpler than some people seem to make it.

EJL

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Aug 2005 6:11 am

Charlie Mc, do a search on "universal 10". You will find several threads on ideas for a 10-string universal. Al Marcus is proponent of it.

I saw on another thread that you were considering changing the bottom four E9 strings to E, C#, A, E, to give a straight A chord (IV) down there. Why do that when you can get an A chord with the A and B pedals on E9? I suggest you thoroughly explore standard E9, so you will know what you are giving up if you change it. Strings 1,2 and 7, that are giving you so much trouble, are more scale strings than chord strings. They allow quick scale runs and melody playing, without moving the bar. And as long as they are there, they can also be used for more complicated chords. Having only open chord strings creates a problem for scales, melodies, and complex chords. Having strings 1 and 2 out of order seems strange at first. But it is genius. It makes them available for scales and melodies, but keeps them out of the way of the straight chords. Also, it allows you to use them in scale order by rapidly alternating thumb and pointer or index. If the strings were in order, you'd have to cross over your picking fingers to get scales. If you string a steel in scale order the way a harp is strung, you would need to pick with both hands, the way harpists do. Where you gonna hold your bar, with your left foot?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 03 August 2005 at 07:45 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Aug 2005 6:19 am

If you have no pre-disposition other than really liking country music, you should start on standard 10-string E9. Way more instuctional material and way more players to learn from. 98% of what you hear on country radio is standard 10-string E9. After you gain some ability, you may naturaly explore other options (D-10, U12, etc.) or even devise your own tuning if you are so inclined.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Aug 2005 12:09 pm

Gentlemen,
Good recommendations, since I just found out there is a caveat about changing string guages with the Starter (dang, I sure wanted half-rounds). So I'll check it out before I start messing with it. But it's full chord sounds I'm looking for; I'll just have to learn decent grips. Dangit.

I've begun to justify the 2 crazy strings, and I may see the wisdom of them before long.

Eric, you're very funny.

Good accurate tuners are plentiful

not in my profession[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 03 August 2005 at 02:50 PM.]

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 3 Aug 2005 12:21 pm

Carter-Starters are pretty much hard wired for the E9 Nashville tuning. You can only lower strings 2, 4, 5, and 8. Changing the string gauges can be done but remember to change the open tuning to match the new gauge. Not changing the gauge when changing the open note may result in the changer not being able to pull the note to tune accurately repeatedly. Here's a chart of recommended gauges for each open tuned note.
http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/strings/stringgauges.html
[This message was edited by John Fabian on 03 August 2005 at 01:22 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Aug 2005 1:54 pm

John, this is excellent. I had already interpolated the guages, but was going to contact you before I actually did it.

I knew that it was logical, in order to avoid undue stress on the changer, but you never know until somebody in the know has the answer.
Thanks.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Aug 2005 6:49 pm

Charlie.

I never got around to asking, and I'm not being the least bit facetious, what you've found to be the most accurate tuner?

I was going through my dad's "Fischer Kit" and found all his tuning forks, wrench, and wedges. It brought back memories of helping him "count beats". That was when I was four and five. Alas he was to lose his hearing mostly a few years before his passing..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 August 2005 at 07:54 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 3:57 am

Hey, Eric, I like it when you're being facetious. It can make for a good straight line. But who can tell when you're ever serious? Flip a coin.

There are probably more sophisticated tuners--they talk about that compensated Peterson and all--but as an ear tuner, I use one only for starting pitch, and you can use it to calculate the amount you need to tune over 440 if you're doing a pitch raise. I use the same quartz-locked analog Korg I've used for 25 years. Still ticking.
I can't imagine needing more accuracy.

I really like the auto-tune in my Zoom digital recorder. Really fast for guitars.

I'll bet it's fun looking through your Dad's stuff; all those wierd little tools.
I get the same feeling rummaging through my Dad's toolbox. Nice memories.

I tuned for the Dixie Dregs once; in their piano was a student tuning hammer stamped 1896. They let me have it. Love antique tools.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 5:25 am

BTW:
Josh; your grandpa must be amazing. Only 52 years to learn. He could probably set me straight.
Anyway, thanks for letting me use your space to hijack to my project. I hope you can glean a few things, besides miscellaneous ramblings on piano tuning.

By the way, a Korg can be a very handy tool.

So one more set of thoughts and responses.
I checked out Al Marcus U10 (and encountered much more along the way).

I've used the Carter site extensively, including the string guage chart (I nailed it already, through interpolation.)
But one topic gave me something else to think about: guaged roller nuts! Could strike doom to the idea.
As a bass player, the concept is to give a more open bottom to the chords (and scales? never played scales, don't like 'em, I'm a chord man, coming from a background as a piano accompanist).

So back to the topic, the wisdom and experience here is right on. Good instruction on E9 is the basis from which one can make personal adjustments. Yes, I think steel tunings can continue to evolve, but they are best made within the evolutionary steps that have been made so far. That's what study is for.

Bob Carlucci was adamant about this; learn what you can do on E9 first! and he will coach me. And lots of help here.
I wish I could talk to your grandpa, Josh.
I think you'll do just fine.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 4 Aug 2005 7:34 am

Charlie, don't think scales, think runs and melodies. Strings 1,2 and 7 along with the A and B pedals allow you to play the 8 notes of the scale without moving the bar. You need all those notes for melodies that move too fast to have a full chord on every note. Of course those same notes also provide a lot of chords. String 9 and additional knee levers provide accidentals that are useful for some melodies and more complex chords.

If you want bass strings and low open chords, you will someday enjoy trying a 12-string extended E9 (adds a low 3rd and root) or a 12-string universal (puts string 9 on a knee lever, adds a low 3rd, root and 5th). Some people also play 14 strings (get in touch with Forum member Bill Stafford and get one of his amazing CDs). Most people do not advise beginners to start on a 12 or 14 string. And I would concur with that for someone interested in country. But I think it would be fine for a beginner with a piano background who is interested in things beyond country, such as jazz, rock, blues and classical, to start on a 12-string. That describes me, and seems like it describes you.

I started steel on Dobro and lap steel, then 10-string E9. But I did not feel at home until I tried a U12. I first tried an extended E9, but the grips were too complicated on the bottom. I was immediately at home on a uni. The top 8 strings are identical to 10-string E9, but it's all open E chord at the bottom. Frankly you don't need that low stuff for country lead, and so many country players don't see the appeal of the uni. But the low open chord strings are ideal for power chords in rock and blues. Also, you can play a uni very pianistically for jazz and classical, and grab chords and bass notes down low. I'm working on a Chopin prelude that is all piano chords (you know, the C minor one that goes dum dum dumdy dum). And on the low strings you can get the darker voicing that much jazz needs. A major advantage on a uni is that the 5th below the low root becomes the root for the mostly open minor chord you get with the A pedal. This is really essential for all the jazz, blues and classical music in minor keys. The uni really opened up minor keys for me, and I love the darker sound of the low strings.

Finally, in the 6th mode of a uni you get the whole other world of swing and jazz, without having to Sclepp around a huge, heavy double neck. The additional E9 low stuff would be enough to keep me at home on a uni, but the 6th neck stuff comes along for a free ride. It's almost too good to be true. I think, beyond country, the uni has tremendous potential for becoming the standard. Listen to people like Maurice Anderson, Joe Wright, Bill Stafford, and Larry Bell to hear it's potential.

So I wouldn't advise every beginner to consider a U12, but with your strong piano background, you should consider it. Sure it's lots of strings. So what? 8 year olds start on harps with a lot more strings all the time; and we both started young on pianos with 88 keys. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 04 August 2005 at 08:39 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Aug 2005 8:28 am

David-sounds like good advice. I would also recommend starting on a U12.

You can play all the E9 stuff available, and when you are ready, you can strum your full chords that you want on the 6th side.

You will also like the extra bass strings and the 3 G# to A's instead of 2.

This will allow you to play the same octave on the lower strings that you do on the higher strings. Without moving the bar.

Check with Larry Bell's website....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Aug 2005 10:11 am

Al,
I did a search and found your U-10, which I thought was pretty cool. It would actually work on a Starter, which is what I'll be starting out on, and I think it's good.

David, you've got me down pretty well as far as what I'm hearing.

Still I wonder, why can't I shift everything up a couple of strings, and get those bass strings in (roller nut aside)?
I can have those crazy strings when I get a 12.
I started out on a guitar with 5 strings.
It was so easy to add the upper E and play later.

Oh, yeah, dum dum dumdy dum, I know that one. I just wish I could recall the name of 'dah dee... de deeeeee....'[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 04 August 2005 at 11:32 AM.]

Dave Baldwin · Post by **Dave Baldwin** » 6 Aug 2005 8:21 am

hi charlie got my new carter ordered be here next week got a good price for the mavrick now were in bussnes dave

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Aug 2005 8:37 am

Great, Dave. That GFI Economy looked good, but I'm excited about my Starter. Good company, John Fabian is very helpful.
I've got his number if you ever need it.