Strumable Dim7th HELP?

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 18 Jul 2005 4:30 pm

E 9th tuning-3 peds(Emmons setup)-4 KL's.I have no problem with moving the KL"s.I also have another ped that I can install with a little work.Just want to have a 4 note DIM 7th on adjacent strings..preferably in the range of the 3rd to the 7th strings.Any suggestions or ideas will be greatly apprecated. Like I said I am willing to move the levers or add a ped..If I can get that chord, I'll find whatever else I need.
Thanks friends. P.J.
p.s.I'm willing to switch to Day setup too.

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ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Jul 2005 4:34 pm

open Adim7
1/2 A + B + Eb lever

spelled
8 = D#(5b)
7 = F#(7bb or 6th)
6 = A(tonic)
5 = C(3b)
4 same as 8 (5b)
3 same as 6 (tonic)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 18 Jul 2005 7:04 pm

If you also have the X-lever (B > Bb on string 5), then you can get this same voicing without the half-pedal A. Just use A+B+Eb+X. On the open strings it's either Eb, F#, A, or C dim7, depending on what you want to call the root:

String 8 - Eb
String 7 - F#
String 6 - A
String 5 - C
String 4 - Eb

which is a nice closed voicing. String 3 is also A, which fits, but is not a closed voicing. This is exactly the same as Larry's suggestion - the only difference is that one gets the half-pedal A via A+X.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Jul 2005 8:40 pm

On a typical 10-string E9 you can get a dimished 7th with the F lever and the D lever. In the open position it would be a G# dim7, and at the first fret it would give the same A dim7 the above two posts show. This is strummable from string 6 up to string 2.

<pre> F & D F & D
String open 1st fret
1 F# G
2 E D#
3 G# A
4 F F#
5 B C
6 G# A
7 F# G
8 F F#
9 C# D
10 B C
</pre>

If you took the typical half-step lower off of string 9, that makes strings 8,9 and 10 strummable. If you wanted to include strings 7 and 1, you could raise them a whole step (I do that on LKV). Then you would have every string part of the chord.

I love this chord. Here's some theory on it and a sound bite: http://www.tonalityguide.com/xxdim7.php [This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 July 2005 at 09:44 PM.]

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 18 Jul 2005 8:44 pm

I did this by adding a pedal 5 (on my Pro-1) that lowers string 4 from E to D, and lowers string 7 from F# to F. I got a closed diminished on six strings, skipping string 8. Works well in the middle, 7,6,5,4. String 3 fits in also.

Open Chord
10- B
9 - D
8 - (omit)
7 - F
6 - G#
5 - B
4 - D
3 - G#

You get a handy 7th triad for the IV7 in B6 mode, same fret, with lots of tritones available.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1, Nashville 112, Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jul 2005 9:33 pm

I always just use the F lever for a diminished chord. I block the 7th string with my left thumb to strum it.

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 19 Jul 2005 11:39 am

Hey ,thanks Guys.You got my old head a workin.I knew you gentlemen would be able to help me.
Larry,thats the way I was doin it,but I wanted to get rid of the 1/2 ped. on A..Thanks for the input.
Dave M,Don't know what you mean about the X lever?Would that be the same as adding a 4th ped?And would that block the B from rising past C note while using the A ped? Looks like an idea that I will look at very closely.Take some work to set up but maybe..thank you.
Dave D, what are the F and D levers? Are they just other names for LKL-LNR-RKL-RKR etc.? Guess you can tell I'm wandering around in deep woods here,but I just gotta hear those chords flow of my ancient ZB.I have become bored with 6 string guitar..
Thanks Michael,Another good idea to keep in mind,if I add a pedal.
Bobby,My levers don't seem to be set up quite right..I'm tearing it down so I will make the changes and try different things..
Thanks again for your patiences and suggestions..(note my sig.)"little talent"
P.J

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ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 19 Jul 2005 1:27 pm

"Dave D, what are the F and D levers? Are they just other names for LKL-LNR-RKL-RKR etc.?"

The "F lever" raises the 4th and 8th E notes to F (really E#). The "D lever" lowers the 2nd string D# to D (and sometimes further to C# and string 9 D to C#). The designations LKL, etc., just refer to where the levers are and how they move, and there is no particular standard like there is (to some extent, anyway) for the pedals.

The "F lever," by itself gives you a diminished triad on strings 3,4,5,6,8 and 10. By lowering the 2nd string 1/2 step, you can play it and get that other note to make a full diminished 7th.

At the first fret, the notes are 5, 4, 3 and 2 are now C, F#, A and D#, which makes a D# diminished 7th chord. Of course, since diminished 7th chords are made up of all minor thirds, any of the four notes can be interpreted as the root. For example, you could "spell" this chord A, C, Eb, Gb and call it A diminished 7th. You could spell it F#, A, C and Eb, etc. etc.

BTW, this is one of those rare situations where JI could give you a sour-sounding interval, between the lowered 2nd and the raised 4th/8th. In ET, all the minor thirds are the same size.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Jul 2005 4:37 pm

Well this raises the interesting question of what the proper JI intervals are for a diminished chord. A JI minor 3rd is 16 cents sharp relative to the root (or 444 relative to A=440). But if you stack four of those, of course the one an octave above the root will be 60 cents sharp of the proper octave pitch, which makes no sense. Relative to ET that would be 0, +16, +32, +48, +60 (440, 444, 448, 452, 456). If instead of simply stacking minor thirds, you take the actual notes from a JI scale, you get intervals that relative to ET are 0, +16, -16, -10, 0 (440, 444, 436, 438, 440). The D on my 2nd string is +16 (444), tuned for a proper JI dominant 7th to the open E chord. So this latter series is pretty much what I get on my JI tuned E9. It looks all over the place in print, but it doesn't sound bad to me. It is a dissonant chord no matter how you tune it. Maybe that's why the added dissonance caused by JI is not noticable. Some day I will tune a diminished chord ET and see if it sounds any better. I'm thinking it will still sound dissonant. To me, the JI diminished chord, doesn't sound as bad as an ET straight major or minor chord. That's why I opt for keeping my common straight chords sweet JI, and letting the dissonant diminisheds, augmenteds, etc. be dissonant. My mama always tole me, "Yuh can't have everything."

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Jul 2005 8:22 pm

It is off the topic, David, but here's one way of looking at it. There is a beatless JI ratio 7/6 that sits at 266.9 cents. I guess you could call it a "small minor third". Most JI players end up with the D to F interval tuned pretty close to that, and the other minor thirds tuned to the more conventional 315.9 cents.

I suggest that if you want to explore this further, you should open a new topic about it. This musical math topic really is beyond the scope of Papa Joe's questions.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 19 Jul 2005 8:43 pm

UH HUH.and beyond Papa Joe's ability of understanding..I know very little theory..But I'm OK now with what you all have told me..Thanks friends..
This forum is the best thing that I've found since "the little blue pill".
P.J.

------------------
ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Jul 2005 9:31 pm

b0b's right, Joe, we're just quibling about some arcane issues of tuning a diminished chord. Sorry for the drift. Just use one of the above methods to get a diminished and tune your guitar the way you normally do. Then march that diminished chord up the neck 4 frets at a time for a great old fashioned cartoon sound.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Jul 2005 7:30 am

The would be three frets at a time, David.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Jul 2005 10:44 am

Oops! Right, who's countin'?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Jul 2005 5:28 pm

Quote: "Dave M,Don't know what you mean about the X lever?Would that be the same as adding a 4th ped?And would that block the B from rising past C note while using the A ped? Looks like an idea that I will look at very closely.Take some work to set up but maybe..thank you."

The X-lever is a pull that lowers B to Bb on string 5 (and sometimes on string 10). It can be used by itself, but in this application, A+X gives the same thing as half-pedaling A - as you suggest, instead of the A pedal raising B to C#, if you do A+X, the pair raises B to C.

Most people seem to put the X-lever either on RKL or (if they have a vertical lever LKV) on LKV. I prefer RKL. The X-lever is especially useful on a universal guitar, since it's also the equivalent of the E to Eb lever in the B6 mode, and I find myself using it a lot now to play swing stuff on an S-10.

I like this dim7 chord because it's in the middle strings, and is a nice rich sound, which is what I'm usually looking for when I play a diminished. That's just my personal preference.

Here are a few previous threads on the X-lever. If you do a search in the Pedal Steel forum, you'll find others, it's been discussed a lot.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009854.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010011.html
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007617.html

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 21 Jul 2005 12:08 pm

"The X-lever is especially useful on a universal guitar, since it's also the equivalent of the E to Eb lever in the B6 mode, and I find myself using it a lot now to play swing stuff on an S-10."

Just to clarify, on a Universal-12 in B6 mode, this change is like the C-B lower on a C6. It has the same function, lowering the tonic note of the tuning, as the E-D# lever on a standard E9.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 21 Jul 2005 12:47 pm

OK Guys,startin to get the picture now,thanks to all the helpful input.The X lever is goin on.Just don't know where yet.Pretty sure it will be on the right knee though.
One more question,What is a vertical,how is it mounted? Are ther any plans/diagrams for making one? I use all 4 of my current levers and would like to keep them..Another option I have is to inatall a 4th pedal..Got every thing to do that.Any ideas on that route?
Keep in mind that my PSG is unlike anything I"ve found here on the SGF.So that means I'll have to make any parts I need.No problem on that.
Yes Dave,I like the idea of having the dim7th in the middle as you suggested.Thats where I play most of my chords,while using the bass strings for lead ins and accents.
Thank again my friends..P.J.

------------------
ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jul 2005 1:17 pm

Papa Joe,
PLEASE be aware that the half-pedal C note you get by raising the 5th string to C# with the A pedal and then lowering back down to C with the 'X' lever (I HATE that term), ONLY WORKS PERFECTLY IF YOU HAVE TUNABLE SPLITS. It's very difficult to get the Bb tuned to sound right in tunes like 'Together Again' (not how Brumley did it but it is the most common usage of B to Bb) AND hit the C perfectly tuned when used with the A pedal. If you're playing a ZB, you probably don't have tunable splits.

It MAY work fine, but, if it does, don't ever change string gauge on the 5th, because it won't work then. The only way to be able to accurately tune the C note split is to have that feature on your guitar OR to use a separate lower rod for the split (this has been described on the Forum many times before).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 23 Jul 2005 1:00 pm

Yes Larry,I"ve pondered that situation and see your point.I do have separate tuners for the A ped. and the X ped..(don't know what else to call it),so it might work..Thanks for the heads up..
Can you help me in learning just what a VERTICAL lever is. Where is it placed,How do I activate it? Are there any plans or diagrams for making one that you are aware of? I am totally in the dark even though I've done a lot of searching.Thank you.P.J.

------------------
ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Jul 2005 1:24 pm

you need THREE separate tuners to tune the A pedal C#, the X lever Bb, and the split C. That's what a split tuner does. Otherwise, your Bb note may not tune properly if you tune the nylon nut on the X lever to give a C when used with the A pedal. The X lever is not only used to 'half pedal' the A pedal.

A vertical lever is one that is pushed UP, usually with the left knee.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 July 2005 at 02:26 PM.]

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 23 Jul 2005 4:22 pm

OK Larry, Got it..Kinda like Daddy use to say when someone in a newer car would pass his old "A" model,"I might be slow, but I'll be there for the first dance".I thought the VL should go up, but I read some old postings that said they could not do it that way..I'll figurte it out now,thanks to your help..And thanks again for being so patience with all my dumb questions..Rather ask dumb questions than make dumb mistakes..Thank you..P.J.
BOY am I ever gettin my $5 worth.

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ZB DS10 3\4
Stringmaster D8
Nationals Rocket One 10 ,Chicagaon
Dobro 8 string
Strats,Teles,Gibson,Ibanezs
Old Fender & Gibson tube amps.Little bit of talent.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Jul 2005 5:32 pm

There are no dumb questions
I know there are dumb mistakes -- I've made a bunch

But there are also dumb answers.

(watch out for those)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps