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Topic: E9/C6 Lock Lever? |
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 23 May 2005 9:54 am |
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Common U-12 wisdom is that you change the pitch of two E strings to D# to shift into "B6th mode". Sierra implemented a "lock lever" to make this transition a real tuning change.
Has anyone ever used the lock lever idea to change an E9th into a C6th instead of B6th? It would be too stiff to work as a knee lever - more like a gear shift. Here's the basic concept:
E9th lock C6th
F#
D# -D
G# -G
E E
B +C
G# +A
F# +G
E E
D --C
B --A
E +F
B +C You would tune pedals 4 through 8 to standard C6th changes with the lock engaged. You lose the "Universal" playing concept, but you gain the "standard" C6th right out of the book on a single neck guitar.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 23 May 2005 10:31 am
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Hi Bobby!
I truly believe the "Change-Lok" on the Sierra S12 and S14 guitars were intended to facilitate a playing ergonomic similar to the double-neck E9/C6 guitars rather than making a "universal" tuning more manageable. If you look at the copedants associated with those guitars, pedals 4 through 8 are the standard 6th pedals. Sure, you could elect to play in a "universal" mind set, but a "standard" 9th and 6th tuning are available pitch-wise and ergonomically using the "Change-Lok". Even the kneelevers associated with the "6th" tuning are lined up with the "6th" pedals, just like on a D10.
With a Sierra "Change-Lok" system it's a more simple process to lower the two "E"s and play B6th one fret higher than to change the pitch of 9 strings to play C6th. To that extent I can't imagine someone trying what you've suggested, but I suppose there are always a daring few....
b0b, thanks for all you do for the steel guitar community.
Keep on pickin', amigo!
Glenn |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 23 May 2005 10:38 am
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| The difference here is that you don't lose the D string of the E9th as in a E9/B6 universal. |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 23 May 2005 10:59 am
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You're absolutely right. However, If you change the RKR kneelever from raising the bottom "B" to a "D" and make the eighth string "E" lower to a "D" and maybe even "C#" you could bridge that difference fairly well. (The "B" to "D" seems to be a "universal" thing.)
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
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mickd
From:
london,england
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Posted 23 May 2005 11:08 am
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11 pulls on one shaft - the change lock would have to be hydraulically operated 
Wouldn't this also lead to a much magnified version of the Universal detuning problem commonly seen when engaging and then releasing pedal 6 with the lock engaged ? |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 23 May 2005 11:58 am
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Oh. I forgot about that. Never mind!  |
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Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
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Posted 23 May 2005 2:28 pm
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| I had a 12 string universal for only a short time. I loved the E9 because it had so many more strings and the depth with the bigger strings. The B6 didn't agree with me and I sold it because everything I knew was out of place and the knee lever for the Don E9 wasn't too cool either. If one neck did it all with E9 and C6 I think a lot more players would go this way. I sure try it again. Give me that number on a Sho-Bud S-12 with a mini pad. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 May 2005 10:31 pm
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On the Lok~Lever, you could add a rod to Lower String #2 an extra (1/2-tone) to (C). Then you'd have your comparative C6-(D) on your B6. Your KL could still only Lower #4 & #8 and then add the #2-string to the Lok~Lever to Lower (1½-tones), in addition to #4 & #8.  I wouldn't bother, but; someone might! Maybe b0b¡
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site |
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Rainer Hackstaette
From:
Bohmte, Germany
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Posted 24 May 2005 12:18 am
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quote:
11 pulls on one shaft - the change lock would have to be hydraulically operated
Wouldn't this also lead to a much magnified version of the Universal detuning problem commonly seen when engaging and then releasing pedal 6 with the lock engaged ?
Mick, if I read the chart right, the 4th and 8th strings are not altered, but stay at E. So it's only 9 pulls. Also, the "false return" problem of the U-12 P6 would not be an issue, since the 4th string isn't raised from a lowered position.
Rainer
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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, '70 Emmons D-10 8+4, '69 Emmons S-10 6+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, '73 Sho~Bud LDG 3+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400, Line 6 Variax 700
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 24 May 2005 4:32 am
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| If you add the 1st string lower from F#-F, you'll have my C6 open tuning. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 24 May 2005 5:57 am
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Yeah, I thought about changing the first string, but I didn't want to go overboard.
Rainer, it's true that the detuning problem would exist on the E string, but it would show up on other strings with other pedals. I agree with Mick. The idea has been totally discredited. Now I know why nobody does this.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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mickd
From:
london,england
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Posted 24 May 2005 11:17 am
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I have the 2nd string lower in addition to the 2 E's on my lock lever, so thats just 3 pulls but already the lever is a bit harder than I'd like. Its worth it though to get the instant C6-with-top-D tuning (as opposed to manually retuning the string and then tuning it back up again once you want to go back to E9).
As for the Universal detuning problem, swapping out a couple of cross shafts (from aluminium to steel on A and 6) pretty much cured it for me so maybe theres hope yet [This message was edited by mickd on 24 May 2005 at 12:19 PM.] |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 24 May 2005 11:46 am
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mickd is truely a ‘thinking~mans~man’! Way to go Mick! A slightly longer handle on the lok will make the leverage a little easier! 
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site |
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 May 2005 12:49 pm
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| What is the reason for wanting the open key of "C" as opposed to "B"? I can think of a couple of reasons but they are not to important to me. The main reason that comes to mind is if you want to "copy" someones arrangement of "Remington Ride", for instance, and play in the key of "D". I don't copy many arrangements. The guy who did it first is a hard act to follow. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 24 May 2005 3:20 pm
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| In 1993 at Scotty's,there was rumored to be a Whitney 12 string E9/C6 at the convention but it never materialized. I have no problem with B6 - I got past the "Now everything I know is wrong" syndrome by simply practicing everthing - every lick and song I knew on C6 for several hours each day for about 3 months on B6. In the process,I figured which things to learn in the old key,which things to put in a new key and which things I could or should be able to play in any key. Nowadays I even tune the C6 neck on my Stringmaster to B6 so I don't have to go back and forth. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 24 May 2005 3:29 pm
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C6th sounds better in the flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) than B6th does.
... ducking as I make a hasty exit ... |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 25 May 2005 6:48 am
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| This actually sounds like a fun project! The "LOK" lever could actually double as a 5th leg- providing the needed extra leverage . One of the problems is that, due to all the extra changes you would need a changer like the Excel that has a 5 raise/5 lower capability so that, after adding all the necessary extra changes to the same lever/leg, you would have space available to add your favorite changes as well. Actually it would be quite do-able, me thinks. |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 May 2005 7:53 am
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Just a comment; Tom McCormick who built Howard pedal guitars put a change locking lever (he called it a tuning bar) on a twelve string. I personally set this guitar up for a friend as a B6th / E9th tuning. This was in November of 1973.
When did Sierra do theirs?
As for C6th, Bb6th, B6th or even A 6th with a little practice you can learn them.
Thanx,
Jim
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Peter
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Posted 25 May 2005 11:44 am
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Would a F9th/C6th combination not be easier?
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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
Internationally Accredited 3D Animation Academy
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 25 May 2005 12:21 pm
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| E9th sounds better in the sharp keys (G, D, A, E) than F9th does. |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 May 2005 10:42 pm
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Bicker~bicker!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site |
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 May 2005 10:45 pm
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I'm designing a steel which has no strings! Soon, with a lot of luck, all steel guitar problems will be solved for ever! Dreamer that I am!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site |
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 31 May 2005 4:29 am
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I tried that once, the pedals were very stiff for the 9th style, I think I left it on my Kline back then for a day or two, but it was just too 'tight' for me. I have a 12 string steel that I am using right now, which has a very nice little lock system on it, but if the song is not 100% C6th style, I usually don't use it, I like going back & forth between the two tunings just using the knee lever. the lever that lowers the 4th & 8th is on the LR on this guitar, with that lock hooked into it. I always like the Universal to have the changeover lever on the RR, like MSA's always put it. But that would mean I would have some serious work to move that lock system, so as I once read the Great Late Jimmy Crawford say "we are all creatures of habit & can get used to things in a day or two". I wish I could have a C6th/F9th that would not be so stiff.
Ernie Pollock
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 31 May 2005 5:36 am
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If the third string is always breaking on E9, imagine the problem you would have with it on F9 - not feasible.
I like the fact that B6 relates harmonically to E9. B is the V of the key of E; and E is the IV of the key of B. I think this has made learning the B neck much easier for me than learning a C neck would be. Also, it helps in learning how to switch thinking when moving between the two modes within the same song. But I never learned C neck before trying a universal. So I don't have a repertoire of songs requiring the key of C with open strings.
Finally, the fact that the two modes are harmonically related by the IV and V chords automatically eliminates some potential JI tuning problems caused by changing the root from the 4, 8 and 11 strings in E9 to the 5, 9 and 12 strings in B6. Possibly these same potential problems would be fixed by the new stops on the C6 lock lever, but I haven't thought that through. Cabinet drop might require compensators on the E strings, but maybe the raises and lowers together would cancel each other out.
I can see how a C6 lock lever would appeal to those who don't care about the one-neck universal tuning approach, but just want to duplicate the E9 and C6 necks on a smaller and lighter guitar with a single neck.
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