Amateurs destroying vintage guitars?

Peter · Posted 4 Jun 2005 12:47 am

Are amateur-repairmen destroying vintage guitars?

There are a lot of vintage guitars up for sale on the forum.
Most of these have been looked after and have been repaired professionally.

But I notice that a lot of amateurs are attempting to make fast-buck deals and promise to fix whatever is needed to be fixed.

You can recognise these deals, because they are overpriced and there is a complete lack of accurate information.

They forget to mention that it is an S10 or a D10... They admit it needs new strings... They say it played well a couple of months ago...They charge $1250 for a 3x2...They promise they will assemble it and test it..etc.

How can we keep the quality of the workmanship to a high standard?

Or must we just accept that there are some people willing to purchase a mistreated vintage guitar?

Buyers beware!

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
Internationally Accredited 3D Animation Academy

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Peter.. How DARE you??.. What is your problem??.. Just because I didn't like the Bud your friend sold,you have to try to sabotage me selling a steel on this forum?... The Pro I I posted is NOT overpriced..
Its a clean all original guitar,and if you had any sense you would KNOW if it was an S 10 or not... PRO ONE.. get it??.. EVERYTHING I SELL ALWAYS has a money back guarantee..NO questions asked.. I am NOT a dealer, steel repaiman etc.. I'm just a guy that bought a steel I was unhappy with, traded it to a vintage guitar salesman, for a simpler ProI
... thats it..He had my ProI guitar SET UP in the store he worked in, and liked the 5+5 copedent and the "well used" look.. I told him he could have it and offered a trade deal.. If you had ANY observational skill AT ALL , you would see that I posted here LAST WEEK about the price on a nice ProI and all said $1200 is fair..
Why do you feel it is necessary to persecute me Peter?.. WHAT have I ever done to you?
.. If you are not interested in the ProI ,FINE.. don't buy it,but you are WAY out of line here, and I hope that b0b sees this and sees what you are trying to do to a fellow forumite.. You should be ashamed of yourself.
All you are going to accomplish with this post is force me to sell on ebay, and deprive the forum of a donation... If by chance anyone sees this disgraceful post, please understand, I have done NOTHING to deserve this. ANY gear I sell on this forum, HC, ebay or ANYWHERE is offered with a money back guarantee.. I have gotten stuck with junk many times in my musical instrument purchases over the years.. I WILL NOT inflict that on anyone else if I can help it
... Peter, all I can say is, your reply is below what I would EVER have expected on this forum... bob

Ron ! · Posted 4 Jun 2005 4:51 am

Big words peter....Big words..I hope you can prove these imputations.
I know that you won't name names 'cause you will get flamed big-time.I think the best thing for you to do right now is edit your post.Insulting people the way you do now won't get you nowhere.

I am not choosing sides here for Bob.I am choosing sides here for people that like to make a little extra money by rebuilding steel guitars.
How do you know these people are amateurs in the first place?Did you ever deal with one of them?

Ron

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

I think Peter did deal with one horrible so called "steel mechanic", and got burned badly a few years ago. This person burned many people on this forum. Since died.
I have no knowedge of what deal you good guys are refering to but I do understand what Peter is driving at in general. I have seen and been the victim of several "Restorations" where the guitars were technically ruined.
In the early days of my business, I was guilty of doing things to vintage guitars that I now wish I hadn't done, having no idea how valuable these guitars were to become 25 years later. I no longer "Modify", but will do accurate restorations.
There are even some "Professional" guitar restorers that I wish would keep the guitars they restore a little more original, hence more valuable.
To me, "Restore" means to "put back" the way it was designed and built when new.
I also am not taking any sides here but I did want to voice my own personal opinion on the subject. I also respect the opinions of the previous posters. I also have no personal knowledge of any deals that my friend Bob C. may be referring to.
With great respect to all,
Bobbe Seymour

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Bobbe.. I understand your position,and you know the respect I have for you. The guitar in question is a black ProI that is in very nice ALL ORIGINAL cond. It has not been touched.

I got it from a friend that works in one of the worlds FOREMOST vintage guitar shops.

I played it several months ago and remember it as being quite a nice guitar.

Peter seems angry because I posted it for sale saying it might need strings, I have not seen the guitar in a few months, but I stated in my for sale post,that it would NOT be sold until I had uncased it,posted pictures of it, , made sure it was well played by me,and after all that, I would refund the full price if the buyer was unhappy with it...
For some reason Peter felt he needed to blast me for this.. to the point where I may just say "to hell with it" and just put it on ebay. IMHO $1250 w/shipping/insurance INCLUDED for a clean vintage ProI in BLACK is a fair price.. our friend Peter has taken it upon himself to be the "for sale police" as far as this steel goes, so I have taken it off the "instruments for sale" for now... I will re evaluate what I am going to do, but as with the lacquer MSA I recently sold to a very happy buyer, I will probably just sell it elsewhere... unfortunately, for the second time in a row, that deprives THIS site of a contribution.. NOT good... bob

Jeff Hyman · From: West Virginia, USA

I know nothing about this problem except what I've read in this thread.

PETER: Have you asked Bob if you can return the guitar for a refund, or fix whatever you're unhappy with?

BOB: Did you offer to Peter a refund or repair? If you feel you've done nothing wrong, why are you so quick to stop
selling product on this forum?

My only guess for a problem is shipping charges from the USA <=> S. Africa.

BOBBE: [Thread Drift]... I have a 1970's Sho~Bud "Professional" that I am entertaining having MARRS redue with new guts. I kinda agree with your feelings on OLD stuff... but I will never play it as it is. Those old brass barrel tuners are a PITA. Can you give me a good reason why an old pro like D.Marrs should not redue an old ax? NOTE: Were all friends, and this is NOT meant to be a bashing party.

I

------------------
Jeff Hyman
jeff@cactus.com
Sho~Bud LDG
WEBB and Fender Deluxe
www.HatCreekCountry.com
www.cactus.com

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Whoa! What I see here is Peter asking a general question, and Bob taking it very personally. We all would have been ignorant of the backstory if not for Bob's response.

I assumed that the post was in reference to the butchered Remington that Peter received a few years ago. I know that it's very hard for people in the southern hemisphere to obtain steel guitar parts or have repairs done. I always advise people to avoid vintage pedal steels for this reason. It took a long time to fix that Remington.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
My Blog

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

b0b.. with all due respect,,, It was NOT general.. Peter reffered to MY for sale post, quoting the exact price, the fact that I said it might need strings, the fact that I hadn't seen the guitar in a few months, and the fact that it would be completely checkd out befor it was sold, the fact that I said it was a 3+2..and most other aspects of the post I made in the IFS section. It was MY post and NO other... This all happened earlier, within a few minutes of my listing the Sho Bud. I have gone through this nonsense with this individual in the past.. bob

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I agree with Peter's intent 100 percent! I'm not trying to throw rocks at anybody, but I have seen some HORRIBLE "restoration" work done on musical instruments, by (sometimes) well-meaning amateur craftsmen. And I'm not just talking steel guitars here. I bought a 1936 Gibson L-00 that some moron had NAILED a 12-string trapeze tailpiece to---Electric guitars with pickup slots routed with a chisel, and my own drunken attempt to re-fret a Martin D-35 about 30 years ago. Leave repair/restoration to the pros, or to someone who knows what he's doing. And if you're selling something, represent it correctly---ask for pictures if you're not sure.
And Peter, I think it was very diplomatic of you, not to name names in your (unedited) post.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

This is a difficult subject. The following analyses are strictly hypothetical, as the initial posting appeared to be, and is not related to Peter or Bob C. personally.

To answer the original question - Yes, people of all kinds, amateur and even some professional, have been 'desecrating' vintage guitars for decades. I have frequently cringed at some of the things I've seen done, it ain't pretty sometimes.

But in the U.S. at least, property rights go quite far. When someone buys a guitar, they have a right to do whatever they want to it. As long as they clearly disclose its true condition when selling, there should be no griping about what that condition is. It's not our job to "keep quality of workmanship to a high standard", even though I agree that would be good. But we should insist that people are honest about their descriptions.

Yes, some people are willing to purchase a mistreated vintage guitar. But if communication is clear and accurate, they shouldn't have to overpay for the privilege. This can be an advantage for some people, including many working musicians, who cannot afford a 'pristine original' 60s Telecaster, for example, but who can afford a good refin at half the price. What is a 'fair' price? The one two parties agree to when both are in full possession of the facts about the instrument.

I know many vintage afficionados disagree with me on this, and believe there is an inherent responsibility to maintain a true vintage instrument in original condition. Even though that is my strong preference, that seems overly controlling to me. Functional musical instruments are meant to be played, not displayed. If a player feels a change makes it playable, that is their choice. Just my opinion.

To the issue of making negative comments about forum "For Sale" items that has come up here. On the one hand, we are not supposed to make a negative posting about an item on a "For Sale" thread. This is reasonable, in principle - it's their thread, and this is a business relationship where the forum earns donations. On the other hand, if someone has a bad experience with a seller, they want to warn others. This is also reasonable, in principle - we want to maintain a high ethical standard for business relationships on the forum.

These two principles potentially conflict with each other. The question is, how does one balance these principles? IMO, this is up to the management. b0b decides if a direct warning against a seller should be permitted or not. If not, then this whole point is moot, and we should keep our opinions off the forum. Of course, one could use private email to warn potential buyers who post interest about a for-sale item.

But one thing that should not happen is an underhanded or disguised warning. I don't know enough to say if that's what happened here. But if someone makes such a warning, they should name names, and back up what they say with facts. Innuendo is bad news, since it often has the same effect as a direct statement, and is impossible to defend against. Again, just my opinion, I can see some already state disagreement.

I say all this with full respect of all previous posters. I've tried to make my analysis detached and non-personal.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Sorry Stephen... He knows EXACTLY what he was doing and WHO he was alluding to. Similar to what you did a few months back... I thought this was all forgotten about and you and I didn't have any further problem,,,,
If Peter has any backbone at all, he will say with no hesitation that It was the black Pro I, with the
1] crusty strings,... mentioned in for sale post
2]...3+2 pedals/knees ,...mentioned in for sale post
3} hasn't been seen in a few months,.. mentioned in for sale post
4] will be checked out well before it is sold,mentioned in for sale post
5] $1250 price that I posted...

quite a few coincidences there, don't you think?? Everything I numbered was named verbatim in his rant.. I am now mad at myself for editing that for sale post, because now I have No proof except another forumite who has mailed me about this .. He SAW my listing, but I will not say who it is.... If he chooses to post,fine,, if not,thats fine too.
Hes a great guy and a good friend,and I respect his privacy.

how about it Peter?... any specific guitar you had in mind??.. Care to be a man and clear this up? I was accused and now am asking the accuser to step forward.. lets see what happens. In any case he has succeeded ,as was done with the MSA...I'll sell them elsewhere... depriving a forumite of a VERY nice steel, and the forum of a donation.. AGAIN.. b0b, I'm real soory about this, its happened before and its NOT right.. I paid the same as anyone else to join this great forum... I have several times had my for sale posts TORPEDOED, and I really DO NOT appreciate it... I apologize to ALL for this rant, but I have done NOTHING to deserve this..bob

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

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