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Topic: Wood |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 7:25 pm |
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| I know some builders of pedal steel guitars use expensive hardwoods and others us different materials , exotic woods are nice to look but does the expensive woods really do anything for the sound of the guitar some even use an aluminum frame and cover it with dieboard and formica , is that for looks or cost.Has any body ever just used good ole plywood ? i recently read a post where one person called a ply guitar a clunker , why does it have to be a clunker Why cant it be a good guitar . Some very expensive 6 string guitars are made of plywood why not a steel? kitchen cabinets are made of plywood and look great just like a cabinet on a steel could look dont ya think? figured maple on a steel is a beautiful look but is it just for looks ? Some might think OMG its plywood but if ya stop and listen you might find something about it ya might like .give me your opinion. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 8:01 pm Re: Wood
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| i recently read a post where one person called a ply guitar a clunker |
Apparently the person who said that does not know about the dieboard and mica guitars made by MSA during the early 70s.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 8:36 pm
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The answer to this question can easily be found by reading the story of Antonio Stradivari...Historical records of rainfall, temp and humidity revealed the secret behind the greatest tone woods ever harvested...
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 3:13 am
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| Tone woods ? i have alot of old books dealing with the subject of tone woods by old violin makers , the tone woods were called Deal according to some books other say pine and some called it spruce that was used for the belly of a violin and maple was used for the back and sides along with some other hard woods , some books will tell you that other woods were used with great success also . But i think thats another story a violin is carved to be thin and nothing like a steel guitar.Pine wood makes a great sound board as well as spruce and some high dollar guitars have laminated tops as well as sides and backs , i have built violins and guitars with solid woods and plywood guitars which sound great but the thickness on a steel guitar is much different than an instrument that is carved thin .a gibson 335 is built out of plywood ( a much cherished guitar ) and some great jazz guitars are also built with plywood and my entent here was to say why not a pedal steel built of plywood . |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 3:41 am
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| As far as I know, GFI steels are built using a dense plywood-ish laminate, as were Dekleys. My Swedish AWH and AVM steels also had laminated wood bodies topped with maple veneer. All sound fine, and are much less likely to warp or crack. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 6:15 am
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What Mickey says about Stradivarius is true, but then a violin is entirely wood, both as a mechanical structure and an amplifier. The acoustic output of a pedal steel is of no interest, as all the sound is transmitted through the pickup and the signal chain. Its structure is there to the keep the bridge and nut apart, not to radiate tone.
A well-known builder who was working for a well-known manufacturer once built a guitar out of particle board instead of their regular timber, just to prove how bad it would sound. Except it sounded good, so the experiment was suppressed. (Perhaps he will corroborate - it's not for me to identify another man's confession  )
When I built my own guitar I used so-called furniture board (on a bolted-together box section aluminium frame) as a temporary housing while I concentrated on the mechanics, intending to replace it later. But there's nothing I dislike about the tone enough to make me learn cabinet making.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 8:04 am
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Don't give me no plastic saddle, I want to feel that leather when I ride!  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 8:10 am
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I don't remember saying what my seat was made of....
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 10:17 am
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Side note: It has been said that Stradivari used a special lacquer made from a species of fish that is now extinct.
Different woods produce different tones. Mahogany is supposed to produce a dark tone, while maple produces a brighter one. The Les Paul is made from both woods for a more balanced tone.
On the other hand, Danelectro and Jerry Jones guitars are made out of Masonite, and like the Millennium, Rainsong and Blackbird guitars are made out of carbon fiber.
I wonder how a mahogany steel would sound.
BTW, a year or 2 after the Millennium was introduced, Somebody played one at the convention. I did not attend that year, but Jim Cohen did, and I asked him how the Millie sounded. His answer was that “It sounded like a steel guitar.”
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 11:26 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Stradivari used a special lacquer made from a species of fish |
That would explain why a violin maker I used to know was puzzled at how difficult that varnish was to remove and repair. It was incredibly hard and must have contributed to the sound. The glue was mysterious too. Perhaps Stradivarius was fortunate, and was just using available materials that turned out to be world-beating.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 1:53 pm
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| Ill show you , just hang on a bit and you ll see what i ment . |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 2:03 pm
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Hey Russ- re-reading your posts I think we may have got off topic. I agree - why not a ply guitar? I don't believe it would make much difference to the sound - it would certainly be rigid and stable, which is surely what we're after with a steel guitar. Totally different situation to a carved instrument.
Maybe if I build another I'll try it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 2:28 pm
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i worked for my late friend Jerry Brightman at Performance guitars..The bodies were built from some sort of ply he got from Sweden. He wouldn't even tell me what it was! Superior guitars!
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 4:01 pm
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There is a big difference between lumber yard plywood and the 11- or 13-ply die board mentioned by Mike P., and I believe that difference would contribute significantly to not only the stability but the tone of a pedal steel.
There is another discussion of a related topic going on currently in another thread on the forum, regarding how every aspect of the pedal steel's construction factors into it tonal quality.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=318244&highlight=
I am sure of one thing - discussions on this topic will not end here. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2017 6:58 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
Hey Russ- re-reading your posts I think we may have got off topic. I agree - why not a ply guitar? I don't believe it would make much difference to the sound - it would certainly be rigid and stable, which is surely what we're after with a steel guitar. Totally different situation to a carved instrument.
Maybe if I build another I'll try it. |
thats what im going to do Ian , as soon as i get done with what im doing now im gonna do a plywood pedal steel using a decent grade of just regular plywood , nothing fancy or exotic as they say , I did make a console 10 string from plywood and it sounded just fine , gave it to my son inlaw a couple years ago he still has it . |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 5:23 am
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Stradivari benefited from a cold snap in Europe that lasted a while. They say he took a tuning fork into the woods to select trees.
You can't believe everything you hear. Maybe he used the fork in testing dry wood in the shop.
Frazier, the speaker builder, was 'the plywood king.' It made good speaker baffles.
I would think it a good candidate for pedal steel. One could test the tone of plywood vs. dieboard with a few forks. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 5:42 am
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Years ago, I was project manager on an Interstate highway project south of Tucson and we had a subcontractor who used "Finform" for his concrete forms.
The plywood came for Finland and had twice the plys as ordinary plywood.
It was practically indestructible. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 8:07 am
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My 2 former Classics can be seen on the first page of the MSA thread I posted earlier. The Green one is solid maple, with ba lacquer finish. The white one further down the page us dieboard and mica. The green one was deeper and richer sounding. The white one was slightly thinner and brighter.
This video is from the film West Side Story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyUV3hIL-G0
It depicts the 2 gangs, the Jets and the Sharks, and 3 of the characters, Anita, Tony and Maria, singing individually and then in various combinations, till it ends with everybody singing together.
I interpreted the opening scene of the 2 gangs, by altering between my 2 steels. The green one is first. You can hear the slight difference in their tones (I also used a Match-bro and some other stuff to represent the 3 characters.)
http://www.perlowinmusic.com/Track14.mp3
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 1:27 pm
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Hi Erv!
Maybe that is what Jerry was using. He was very secretive about it.
I have 6 Teles, and have had several more. The guitar that beats them all is a '91 MIJ that I put a 60s Maple neck on. But even before the neck change it was special, Very resonant! What did they use? Basswood?
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Jimmie Hudson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 7:40 pm Re: Wood
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| I know some builders of pedal steel guitars use expensive hardwoods and others us different materials , exotic woods are nice to look but does the expensive woods really do anything for the sound of the guitar some even use an aluminum frame and cover it with dieboard and formica , is that for looks or cost.Has any body ever just used good ole plywood ? i recently read a post where one person called a ply guitar a clunker , why does it have to be a clunker Why cant it be a good guitar . Some very expensive 6 string guitars are made of plywood why not a steel? kitchen cabinets are made of plywood and look great just like a cabinet on a steel could look dont ya think? figured maple on a steel is a beautiful look but is it just for looks ? Some might think OMG its plywood but if ya stop and listen you might find something about it ya might like .give me your opinion. |
Hi Russell I have built a few pedal steels from plywood. The sound is super good. The sustain is forever. The cabinet drop is terrible at least 5 to 8 cents cabinet drop on them. I tried every way I could think of to fix it but the best I got was down to 3 cents drop. That will not cut it with todays steel guitar players. I use Maple and Mahogany for a reason. It does not have the cabinet drop of plywood.
My guitars now do not go out of the shop with any more than .02 cabinet drop next to none that is.
Just thought I would save you some trouble. |
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Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 8:04 pm
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| Hello Jimmie , havent talked in awhile hope your doing good , Reason i wanted to do a ply guitar , the cost on certain woods is crazy and ply looks good has nice grain ( some ply looks good ) and my thoughts anyway has alot of possibles , kinda glad you brought that up ill keep it in mind , Im gonna give it a shot at least one time ill see first hand how it reacts , maybe an aluminum frame for all the under carriage might help the drop kinda stiffin things up a bit ya think? but then again that aluminum cost money also lol Russ |
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Jimmie Hudson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 8:59 pm Wood
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| Russell Adkins wrote: |
| Hello Jimmie , havent talked in awhile hope your doing good , Reason i wanted to do a ply guitar , the cost on certain woods is crazy and ply looks good has nice grain ( some ply looks good ) and my thoughts anyway has alot of possibles , kinda glad you brought that up ill keep it in mind , Im gonna give it a shot at least one time ill see first hand how it reacts , maybe an aluminum frame for all the under carriage might help the drop kinda stiffin things up a bit ya think? but then again that aluminum cost money also lol Russ |
Mount the changer with a metal plate on the underside that all 4 mounting screws go through the one plate. Make it spread the load out as much as you can with the plate.
Also do the same with the keyhead. That should get you close. But you will still most likely have some cabinet drop. If you need any parts I will be glad to try to help you.
I can cut most anything you need in aluminum or wood on my cnc routers and cnc milling machines. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:36 am
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That is good to know you've tried it and measured cabinet drop, Jimmie. Reckon nothing beats real wood.
Certainly, of several MSA's I've had, the green maple one that Mike P. owned was superior tonally. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 11:45 am
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JH,
How do you fasten the aprons to the deck?
JB
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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