Non-foot Volume Pedals?

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 12:47 am

Has anyone done any work in this area worth
considering? Sure would be nice if you could use both
feet on the pedals and use a pair of right vertical
knee levers.

What came to my mind was a pivoting armrest for the
right arm, with volume being controlled by a left-right
movement, and a gentle spring tension keeping it snug
up against your arm.

Bruce in Bellingham

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 16 May 2005 1:55 am

Lew Huston, who passed away a couple of years ago, played a Fender 400 and never used a foot volume control. He just used the volume control on the guitar with his little finger. Lew also had a custom Lamar steel built, basically the equivalent of his old Fender 400, with the volume control mounted in about the same position as the Fender's.

Listen to Conway Twitty's "The Image Of Me". That was Lew on that session (he worked for Twitty before John Hughey).

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 7:10 am

Jack,

I've known a couple of 6-stringers who used that same
technique to make sounds remarkably like a pedal
steel. Oddly, both of them played Fender Telecasters.

I'll check out the recording.

Another idea: A pseudo-armrest for the left arm that
increases the volume when pressed down (normally off)
and mildly spring-loaded to return to zero volume.

It would extend the length of the fretboard.

Bruce in Bellingham

Danny James · Post by **Danny James** » 16 May 2005 7:33 am

Yes I play a Multi-Kord and need both feet for the pedals. I used a potentiameter and made a spring loaded lever to rest the palm of my right hand on instead of using a volume pedal. It worked good, but messed up my picking some. ( which isn't to hard to do for this old timer.)
I am not using it now but probably should put it back on.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 May 2005 7:55 am

I put a long lever under my homebuilt guitar with the multikord changer, in 1962.It worked from left to right spring loaded, When I left off on the lever it was off.

It worked ok but I always had to have pressure on it to play. So I went back to my Rocco tone Expressor.

So when I used both feet, I didn't use the volum pedal. I also had a tone and vlume control on top on the board to handle with my little finger. That wasn't too bad. But as one poster says it did affect my picking some.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 8:48 am

Danny,

Using the right hand/arm is really a bad idea, for the
that very reason: messes up your picking/blocking.

Al,

But that knee lever idea got me thinking:
How about a double row of pedals, set up like this:

<pre>
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | |
</pre>

With the upper row there being above the bottom row
on the pedalboard, and overlapping somewhat, like
the black keys on a piano.

There could be some duplicates and endless possible
combinations with both feet free. For example, you
could press
<pre>
| or | |
| | |
</pre>

with one foot at the same time. Then use lkl or rkl to
lower the volume, and lkr or rkr to raise the volume.

?????

Bruce in Bellingham

~
~

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 10:20 am

Note:

I'd add vertical knee levers too, which would
both toggle the volume control between two settings.

One: Normal. When lkl/rkl were fully 'depressed', the
volume would be zero and lkr/rkr would bring it up
gradually.

Two: When lkl/rkl were fully 'depressed', the volume
would be zero, but 'depressing' lkr/rkr would
immediately bring the volume up to "normal playing
volume", to be set by a knob on the right endplate, and
take it up from there.

(This would make hiding the attack really easy, allowing
very realistic "bowing" sounds.)

Simply hitting either vkl would change the setting from
wherever it was to the other one.

The non-vertical knee levers would be ganged together,
moving left and right as a single unit.

The volume pedal I used to use on my electric bass
worked like the above, with a toggling foot-button
beside the pedal (on the same board). I really liked
being able to sound like a bowed string bass.

Bruce in Bellingham

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 May 2005 1:17 pm

Forum member Vic Chaney once built an intra-oral volume control. You operated it with your teeth. It was for a parapalegic steel player.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 2:09 pm

Bobby Lee,

That makes sense. Be hard to sing though. Reminds me
of the mouth controlled sort-of-wahwah/phase-shifter
that Tom Petty (and the Heartbreakers) used with his
six-string electric. Very expressive.

Bruce in Bellingham

db · Post by db » 16 May 2005 4:11 pm

There are "Breath-Controllers" for synth players
to simulate the volume swell of a woodwind instrument out there . . .
One of these could be used with a simple midi volume-control box . . .
This may all have to be custom designed.
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 16 May 2005 at 05:13 PM.]

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 4:50 pm

Dan,

I think that's actually what Tom Petty uses. But I'd really like to stay in the mechanical arena. Electronics and computers is
a whole new can of worms, and I'm a country-folkie at heart.

Bruce in Bellingham

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 16 May 2005 8:18 pm

I read somewhere that Hal Rug had a volume pot on his bar somehow. The article I read didn't give any details on how it worked though.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 10:54 pm

Gary,

I can see that working. A somewhat over-sized bar with
the edge of the control dial (axle aligned with the
neck) under the index finger. But there would have to
be a shielded cable running from the back of it and
that would require a connection on a track or it would
get really messy.

I'm trying to come up with a U-12 copedant for the 19
pedal/knee-levers-vol-pedal idea I described above,
using Winnie Winston's tuning on the last page of his
and Bill Keith's book. It has 12 changes, so that gives
me up to 7 duplicates to make it happen.

Looking like it'll be no problem at all, and will have
all sorts of possibilities beyond his setup.

Wonder what it would cost me to have it built?

Bruce in Bellingham

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 16 May 2005 11:04 pm

On the duplicates...¿would you have more pulls?...¿or just two pedals connecting to the same pulls?

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 16 May 2005 11:16 pm

Jeremy,

Seems like it would be the two pedals connected to the
same pull, though I am anything but an expert in such
things. Whichever solution worked and was simplest.

Bruce in Bellingham

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 17 May 2005 12:10 am

Here's Winnie's old copedant from the book:

<pre>
< < ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 < < >

F# G G G
Eb D/C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# C#
G# G A Bb Bb
F# G F
E F Eb
D Eb C#
B C#
G# G A Bb
E C# F
</pre>

Would someone tell me whether he expected to push < and
< or < and ^ or ^ and > (all on left) simultaneously or
not? I know zip about C6 tunings. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone who responded here. I appreciate
the feedback a lot.

Bruce in Bellingham

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 17 May 2005 2:29 am

<pre>
2 4 6 8 10 12 14
1 3 5 7 9 11 13

F# G G G G G
Eb D/C#
G# A G
E F# F Eb
B C# C# C#
G# A Bb Bb G
F# F G F G
E F Eb
D C# Eb
B C#
G# A Bb G
E F C# F
</pre>

First crude attempt. 14 instead of 19 pedals. Assuming
that only one knee lever from each side and only two
adjacent pedals in Winnie's setup were depressed at the
same time, this one has every change that his does, and
a lot more.

It's 3:30 AM and I'm fried...

Bruce in Bellingham

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 17 May 2005 10:48 pm

Been doing some more thinking while playing on my
steel...

Looks like Al Marcus' basic idea is the best one. Our
hands, arms, and feet are both plenty busy.

Almost all of us use one or more vertical knee levers,
so we are accustomed to manipulating the pedals while
using these, both with fine control.

Instead of a single bar that is sprung to return to
zero, I see two bars, each of them running half the
length of the of the span of the pedals.

Pushing up on the left one would lower the volume, and
pushing up on the right one would raise it.

Pushing up on the left one would lower the right one,
and vice-versa.

There's no doubt that more change-combinations are
possible with both feet free to use the pedals
(especially with the piano-keyboard style arrangement
I've suggested above) than by tying one up with a
volume pedal and having knee levers.

15 pedals, with 8 on the lower tier, is well within the
capabilities of any modern pedal steel manufacturer. A
lot of steels have this many knee levers + pedals.

Here is the basics of the mechanics of this 'volume
pedal', from the top:

<pre>

_____________________________________ front of instrument

================= ================= bars
|_______________| |_______________| axles (on back
of instrument)

</pre>

Added later:

The left and right bars would be spring-loaded to
return to a center-point (on the same plane) which
would yield a volume determined by a knob on the
changer end-plate = the average volume for whatever
piece you were playing at the moment.

While you were sitting at the steel with both heels on
the floor, they'd be about a 1/2 inch above your knees.
(adjustable for the individual)

Pushing all the way up on the left bar would drop the
volume to zero (about a 1/2 inch up from center-point),
and lower the right bar a 1/2 inch.

Pushing all the way up on the right bar would raise the
volume from average to maximum (also about a 1/2 inch
of vertical movement) and lower the left bar the same
amount.

For passages requiring fine control of the volume,
you'd keep your knees in contact with the volume bars.

Bruce in Bellingham

[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 19 May 2005 at 05:30 PM.]

Scott Appleton · Post by **Scott Appleton** » 17 May 2005 11:41 pm

Two ideas I have had in the back of the brain:
1 use a mouth controller similar to the yamaha
wind controller to activate a midi voltage controlled
volume circuit.
2 use a light beam aimed at your head and just move
your head for the xy axsis controller.

------------------
Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130, Acoustic 100 W all tube, Nash 112
digitech 2101 FX

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 17 May 2005 11:56 pm

Scott,

How about a pressure-sensitive band around
our male organs? When they got harder, the volume
would increase, and vice-versa?

Bruce in Bellingham

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 18 May 2005 7:37 am

A sphincter insert would be even more responsive, though the ribbing from your bandmates might be merciless (depending on the type of band you're in, of course....) Think of the "guitar face" you'd come up with, with that baby!

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 18 May 2005 9:04 am

To get this back on track, Gary mentioned Hal Rugg doing it with him bar someway, I remember years ago when I was in LA that Al Petty who fronted his band playing steel standing up had some sort of volume control on his bar. I never got to see it but I heard about it from a couple of people. Al was a genius about things like that so I believe it. JH in Va.

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 18 May 2005 10:10 am

Theramins do it without moving parts, by moving hands closer or farther ... one hand for pitch, one hand for loudness.

Bruce Burhans · Post by **Bruce Burhans** » 18 May 2005 10:19 am

David Mason,

Well. I asked for that, didn't I?

Though it _is_ a better idea. I recall reading about
this "Mr. Methane" act in Britain. Guy could play
classical music with his _______. First he'd pump
himself full of air from a tank...

Jerry Hayes,

Indeed.

Also time for me to hit google and see if I can find
the details about those two customized bars.

Bruce in Bellingham

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 18 May 2005 3:14 pm

Why not train an animal, say? a poss.....
SQUMS,
Arch.