All change vs Push pull

Terry Miggins · From: Connecticut, USA

Need advice: I am new to pedal steel. Looking to buy. I want something I can grow with. Should I be focusing on all change or push pull guitars.

Thanks-Terry

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

If you mean an "all pull" changer as opposed to an "push pull", I would suggest an all pull changer. For a beginner they are much easier to tune and set up. All pull changers are pretty much the choice of nearly all modern professional psg's with only a few notable exceptions.Hope this helps you....Stormy Smile

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

I understand where you're coming from in asking your question. Actually, it's a good one that many new, or even experienced, players are afraid to ask.

Think about it, 99.9% of new players plus a whole lot of experienced players have never played a push-pull, let alone really understand why it's called a "push-pull". Why? Well, it certainly has something to do with the fact that only about 5000 push-pulls were made, or thereabouts. When you factor in loss due to fire, flood, total neglect, accident, etc., you could reasonably reduce that number to 4000 or even more. That's NOT a lot to go around.

So, the point is that a lot of players don't have access to ANY p/p at all, let alone playing one for any length of time. Oh, they might be able to sit down at one for a song or gig or two. But, I'm sorry, that just doesn't qualify one to offer an experienced opinion about that steel. All that being said, I've had a few push-pulls and all-pulls. Well, maybe a lot.

My recommendation? Although I have nothing but push-pulls now, having sold all my all-pull Zums, Sho-Buds, etc., I'd still recommend starting with a good all-pull mechanism. Why? Well, to start, you tune push-pulls differently. For example, you tune open strings and lowers at the endplate and raises at the keyhead. All-pulls tune opens at the keyhead

Graham Bland · From: Tennessee, USA

Eric, Just curious...are all the P/P's you own Emmons or do you have a Zum Hybrid in the mix?

Terry Miggins · From: Connecticut, USA

Is a Zumsteel Encore an all pull change psg? I assume it would be but what to confirm with someone.
Thanks- Terry

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Being new to Pedal Steel and looking at a first instrument, I would be more tuned in to initial COST rather than which changer. If you just happen to have $3000 or more to spend on a Steel ( used of course) then either, All Pull or a nice clean Push Pull would never be a wrong decision.

Back when many of us started playing, lets say mid 60's thru the early 80's, the Emmons players didn't even consider whether it was All Pull or Push Pull, they had ONE choice, Push Pull. IF you selected an Emmons guitar, it was a Push Pull. Period.

Are they harder to tune ? No. Are they different,? yes Do they cost more to manufacture ? I would say yes, lots more parts. MANY more. That alone is probably the biggest reason they are not being made anymore. Also the biggest reason that those used P Pulls are quick on the draw for many players. There are only SO MANY.

Being a recently new Push Pull owner / player, but a long time player of Sho Buds and Carters, both ALL Pulls , moving to the Push Pull was not a big deal , you learn how to tune it than go yee forward.

If a player is so inclined to learn how to set-up their own Steels and have even a slight bit of mechanical ability, they will have no issues with either. We have multiple conversations on this forum with ALL PULL owners who are struggling with set-up and other issues, so those set-up and other issues are not dedicated to Push Pull owners exclusively.

I currently own 2 Push Pulls and 1 ALL Pull, ( all Emmons guitars) I rotate 2 of them for regular gig duty , the All Pull and one P Pull. To me it's no different than selecting which Telecaster do I bring to the gig . Like anything else, like all other Instruments, each have unique qualities .

But back to the question, how much do you initially want to spend ? Select the best instrument in that price window for your money. You can't go wrong with either.

The type of changer you have has ZERO effect on your learning experience , you still have to study.

A lousy All Pull guitar will be a detriment to your experience just as a lousy PUSH PULL will and vice versa.

Buy a nice clean instrument and study , if you are concerned about growing into an instrument, grab one with a minimum of 4 knee levers,even though you may not use 2 or 3 for a period, they will be there when you are ready.

That sure beats needing to buy a new guitar to "GROW".

good luck on the journey Very Happy

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

All-pull is the standard, and its design makes it markedly more idiot proof (it's impossible to make things completely foolproof because fools are so ingenious).
The other type of mechanism found by beginners is pull-release; found in many student models, many guitars more than 40 years old, and Marlen and Simmons.
The type of mechanism is less important than its already being set up properly. If you can't afford the prices of used guitars from a dealer, PLEASE try to find a player to 'test drive' the guitar.
If you're near Topeka/Kansas City, I am happy to do that (I'm also a trucker, if you're along my route, I'll do it on the road as well).
Dealer used guitars cost more because they've been gone through.
There's a Facebook friend of mine who's determined to get a cheap first guitar without having to learn to work on them; he's shopping for his third guitar in two months (experienced players will shake their heads to learn he just tried to get a ZB)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Graham,

I had a Zum D10 Hybrid and two earlier Zums, too. Absolutely great guitars. But I just found myself playing Emmons all the time. So, during a "thin the herd" period, I sold them. Regret doing so? Actually, no. I'm happy that the Hybrid went to a GREAT player.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

A simple fact to consider is also, there aren't that many push pulls around. The choice in all pull guitars is so much larger and new ones are still being built. But the only push pulls are practically the original Emmons guitars, except for the Promat, an accurate copy coming from Europe, but I understand those are no longer being made either.
If it's that kind of sound you're after, I think there are all pull alternatives that come pretty close. I have played a ZumSteel once which was amazing, and the one I'm playing right now, the MCI, also very much goes into that direction. All of those are also easier to operate and to maintain than the push pull. If you plan to get one, you need to either know someone who is capable to work on the mechanics or take the time and effort to learn to do it yourself.
My very first PSG was an extremely messed up push pull (what did I know? I was just proud to have an Emmons!) and I had to learn everything from scratch, there aren't many skilled push pull mechanics in this part of the world. No internet access in those days either, it hadn't yet become as common as it is today. In the end I managed to get it into a somewhat playable condition but looking back I would have been much better off with a reliable instrument allowing me to dedicate more time to actually learning how to play instead of having to tinker with it all the time.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

robert kramer · From: Nashville TN

I would buy a single neck S-10 Emmons push pull with the split changer. I would watch and wait for one on the "For Sale: Steel Guitars" section of the Forum. I would pay what you have to pay – spending a little more now will save you money on down the line. You'll be starting out with the benchmark of the modern steel guitar and you can go on from there.

But you may not have to ever upgrade - this guitar will last a lifetime and only accrue in value and handle any job you might encounter. An Emmons plays great – sounds great and tunes up - looks great and the fretboards are designed to sit down to – focus on and play some music. That and an Emmons volume pedal and Boss delay pedal - a small amp and a music stand and you’re all set.

I know a steel player in Nashville who works all the time and records with the stars – all on his Emmons S-10.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Robert, not every push-pull out there is ready to go.
I absolutely do not recommend a first guitar that needs work. A push-pull that's out of adjustment will be dreadful.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Terry -

If you want a pedal steel that you can definitely grow into, a steel that will surely appreciate in value, a steel that has been set up by one of the best (if not the best) steel setup men in the business, and a steel that has been meticulously taken care of since that time, see the posting by Kenny Radas in the Steel Guitar for Sale section of the Forum.

You will not be disappointed. This I know.

Ron

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I'm not sure where all this is going, ALL PUll vs Push PULL.

IF we indeed purchase ANY Steel that needs attention , ALL PULL or PUSH PULL , it doesn't much matter, we are going to be cursed.

There are countless threads from players with ALL PULL guitars with issues they cannot resolve , for various reason's, some very simple to resolve, some not so simple.

We should not assume that if someone purchases one over the other they will have a happy life. Simply not true.

IF we happen to purchases a brand new Steel from a reputable dealer then certainly odds are you are gonna have a well oiled machine. But thats not necessarily true 100% of the time.

IF we purchase a used Steel from one of the "known and recognized" forum dealers, regardless of the changer, odds are we are gonna be better off , we have some recourse as limited as it might be.

Just because it's an ALL PULL doesn't mean it's without issues. It's still a mechanical beast to those who have limited mechanical aptitude. As is the Push Pull.

Know what you are buying, know who you are buying it from, know what you are getting.

If you look down at the fret board from the top, when you mash the PEDS or K Levers, it doesn't much matter whats underneath.

Years back I was attending a show by Joe Wright , during his set someone asked him about his Steel and what kind of set up he had, he said I don't know, I never looked underneath, I play it from the top !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

I wouldnt buy a push pull to learn on unless there was a local push pull mechanic who could set it up properly for you. I love my push pull but when I bought it although it was advertised as in excellent mechanical shape, it definitely needed some adjustment. I have Tommy Cass here an hour away and he was able to get it up and running tip top. Its a lot easier to figure out whats going on underneath on an all pull guitar. On a push pull, any change you make effects everything else so you really have to have a good understanding of them to set them up properly. Tommy Cass is a push pull expert, we are lucky to have him in MA. If I were you I'd look into decent all pull pro level guitar. Just my 2 cents Mr. Green

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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You have John Widgren in Wilton Ct. who is a great steel repair guy. He can handle anything. Maybe get in touch with him and try out a couple steels to see what suits you. Getting a little hands on experience will clear your questions right up.

John is a great player along with a top level push pull and all repair guy. Keep in mind you may need to have any type of steel worked on before you play it if you buy it used.

Another guy you could visit in New England is Tommy Cass. He is one of the best steel techs and usually has a few different steels ready to go. He is one of my go to guys when I'm trying to track down a steel.
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Bob

Mike Scaggs · From: Nashville, TN

I think the advice of many here is solid. Although I dearly love my P/Ps for tone and feel they can be hard to mess with until you learn how. After that they are no big deal at all.

On the other side, an all pull guitar will be easier to maintain and add to later if you like. I have had some top all pull guitars that were a nightmare too so get used to doing your own maintenance
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Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com

Tom Quinn · Posted 3 Aug 2017 2:41 pm

I think the absolute best first guitar is an old Sho-Bud D10 Professional. The rack&barrel system is fool proof and the guitar will sound great. You can fool with the copendent to your hearts content. You may be happy with the guitar for as long as you play.

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I need an Emmons!

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Terry,
If no one answered your Zum Encore question, Yes, they are all-pull. I've owned and/or worked on many brands. In my opinion, the Encore is one of the best values out there today. RP
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Justin Griffith · From: Taylor, Texas, USA

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