The Steel Guitar Forum

Has anybody had a change to compare the National Scheerhorn with a similar original? Comments?

Olli, I have one of the National Scheerhorn guitars'. I have played a few of those and have played many of the originals. As far as I can tell, they are built pretty much the same. The only thing different is National uses their own spider bridge. In my honest opinion, I like the #14 spider, that's what Scheerhorn and most other builders use. Replace the National with the #14 and you basically have the exact guitar Scheerhorn builds. I can tell you that I put a #14 in my guitar and it has that huge Scheerhorn sound just as if he had built it himself. Tim got overwhelmed with orders a few years ago that put him over 4 years back ordered. He got together with National so they could build the guitars that normally built for people such as curly maple, mahogany and rosewood w/ spruce top. That way people could still get a Scheerhorn without having to pay $6000 for one and have to wait 4 years to get it. Tim still builds but he calls them his wishlist guitars. Basically, he will build a guitar of his choosing of woods and decor, and when it's completed, he will call from a list of people that are willing to pay $10,000 or more for a wishlist guitar. He normally uses more exotic woods and maybe a little fancier appointments, but for those that would just like to have a Scheerhorn like his standard stock, that is basically what National is doing. Like I said, just replace the National spider with a #14, and you will have a guitar exactly like the ones Tim builds. Same body size, shape and sound just like the ones he builds. National does put out some Scheerhorns made out of koa as well. Mine is a limited edition guitar made out of torrified maple back and sides with a 20 year old piece of cedar for the top. Torrified is a process that some builders are using that ages the wood or produces tonal characteristics of aged wood. My opinion is that if someone told me my guitar was built by Tim personally, I would believe them. Hope this information helps.

Dean, it sounds beautiful. Do you have a picture of it?

I have yet to personally play a Scheerhorn literally side-by-side to a National Scheerhorn aka Nati-horn.

Though I have been around many Tim-built Scheerhorns "up close and personal" and have now played in the ball park 3 1/2 years they have been on the market about 10 Nati-horns.

Most of them don't quite sound like the real deal Tim-builts to me. The best one I have ever played of the Nati-honns (on three occasions) is a Rob Ickes signature rosewood/spruce model. If I didn't know better, I would have thought it could be a Tim-built. It was really loud, and it had the tone.

I played a nice cocobolo custom Nati-horn about a year ago. I liked that guitar a lot but it didn't necessarily hit my ears like it were an actual Tim-built guitar.

Olli, I don't recall if you are a member of www.reso-nation.org, but we have had many discussions on that forum about the differences between the Tim-builts and the newer Nati-horns since they debuted in October 2013.

Some folks think what is missing from the Nati-horns is that intangible thing where the luthier crosses over from craftsman to artist. One guy on Reso-Nation referred to Tim having some sort of "secret sauce" that the guys at National can't quite duplicate.

Interesting point about the spider bridge Dean, first time I have come across a comment of that nature. When the Nati-horns were first coming out in late 2013 National owner Eric Smith contributed a comment on reso-nation about his spider vs. the #14 (produced by Beard for many years):

Tim and I tested our bridge to the #14 that was in his guitar, weight tone seemed to be right on. If anybody would want to swap out to a #14 it should be a quick job down the road. We strive to produce every bit of the instrument, Just as we always have with National and S&Y.

Reading between the lines, I would think if National's spider bridge made the guitars sound noticeably different from the originals then Tim wouldn't have approved their usage on the Nati-horns.

Just going by what I hear. But I know Tim Scheerhorn very well and no disrespect to Tim in the least, but if the National Scheerhorn sounded exactly like his, I would think there wouldn't be a market for paying over 10 grand for one of his. I think in order to associate that National builds those guitars, they had to incorporate something which in this case was adding their own spider. When Wechter was building the Wechter/Scheerhorn, they weren't using a #14 spider either. Could it be cost related? I'm sure it is, I don't really know why because they don't skimp on using a good cone. Nonetheless, I've played many dobros over the years even some of Jerry Douglas's personal guitars and they all had #14 spiders. I will say this much, I did put the National spider in my Rayco guitar and I thought it sounded better in that guitar as opposed to my Scheerhorn. The only other spider bridge I might put in a guitar would be one that Schoonover makes, I've never heard one personally but I know one was used on one of Tim's wishlist guitars' that Mike Witcher has a YouTube clip of. As far as the National Scheerhorns go, I find no major difference in how they are constructed compared to what Tim builds, same bracing, same number of soudposts and same parabolic baffle. The only thing I can't attest to is what wood is being used for the sound posts or just exactly what material the baffle is made of because there are different materials that can be used for the baffle. But to my ears there's a noticeable difference. I took my guitar to Morgan Music in Lebanon MO one time to compare mine to a couple of Natihorns in their store and it was no comparison, it was a no hands down obvious difference, so, my consensus is, is that Tim doesn't want anything to directly compare to what he builds, he's having to work with the National company as much as they're having to work with him. Tim still wants to be able to sell his guitars, but there's no doubt that he's making a good cut from the Natihorns and that's just good business. I can tell you that after putting the #14 spider in my guitar, I find no need to ever buy a Tim Scheerhorn built guitar.

I also forgot to mention that sometimes companies don't pay attention to certain details that custom builders pay more attention to. The setup can make a huge difference but, a proper setup can be very time consuming, and when your a company and have quotas to meet, sometimes some corners have to be cut. I know Tim is very prejudiced about his setups and that could attest to some differences. I've seen Tim do enough setups along with Paul Beard that I do my own setups, so I guess if you know what your going after, you can get more out of the guitar than just what the company provides. So, from my experience as someone who's been around the block for over 30 years, these Natihorns with a #14 spider and setup properly, can get the sound of a Tim built Scheerhorn.

Dean, I'm sure you know Tim better than I do, though I can also attest to his setup skills. He did some work on my Clinesmith several years ago at ResoSummit in Nashville along with installing one of his cones.

I also took the setup class he taught that year.

Since the Nati-horns came on the market, I've occasionally wondered if were I to buy one I would like to ask Tim if I could send it to him for his personal setup. I'm with you, I think setup has a lot to do with the ultimate sound of the guitar. There are only a handful of recognized dobro setup "wizards" around the country, and the story has been for years that by replacing the original components on an Asian import dobro with the good quality American stuff, they can make an el cheapo resonator guitar sound pretty darn good.

I know Tim has said of the Nati-horns something like, "These are Scheerhorns."

And I have read some comments on the other forum where this is sort of dismissed as "marketing speak." Like, "what would you expect him to say?"

As far as the design/construction it is my understanding that all the wooden aspects of the Nati-horns are pretty much identical to the Tim-built L-Body.

The coverplate is made by National, as is the spider and the tailpiece, which is a slightly different design than what Tim used.

As far as the Nati-horns competing directly with what he builds - I kind of feel like that might all be water under the bridge. He worked out the deal with National I believe to mainly carry on his legacy, and no doubt to pull in some money to help with the retirement account. Which I believe he is very close to doing. Keeping my ear to the ground in hearing what others have said, I don't believe he has built any more than 4 or 5 guitars annually in the past few years. And that might get down to zero before too long. If that's the case and a little money continually comes in from his arrangement with National, it would seem to me that it would be in Tim's best interest to continue to work with them to refine the product line to where one really couldn't tell the difference between a Tim-build and Nati-horn guitar. For folks selling Tim's guitars on the used market - there's nothing in it for him financially - he got paid for that guitar X number of years ago.

As I recall, he didn't start the Wish List and make the deal with National because he couldn't keep up with the "old" waiting list - he was ready to slow down and start cycling toward retirement. At his height he was building about 40 guitars a year as a one man operation.

Yes, the Wish List started out as a way for him to build some exotic pieces and if your number was next in line, you could go for one of these jobs or pass. But after awhile I saw some Wish List guitars that looked just like his production maple and mahogany guitars, but now instead of being $6000 they were $10,200 (I wonder how he decided on that extra $200?). Some buyers who had missed out on the $6000 and lower days I guess sucked it up and went to the $10,200 versions of maple or mahogany. I guess these guys had really good years in their job or business!

Fellow Forumite Rob Anderlik does a great job with his Squareneck Journal.

Here is a link to an interview he did with Tim Scheerhorn in 2015:

https://squareneckjournal.com/2015/02/1 ... cheerhorn/

Here is what is no doubt the Reader's Digest Condensed version of how the arrangement came about with National to build the Scheerhorn guitars:

SJ: How did the agreement with National Guitars to build and offer a Scheerhorn L Body come about?

TS: To answer that I need to go back to my arrangement with Wechter and Sweetwater Sound. Basically, the folks at Sweetwater had a difficult time marketing the instruments. Sweetwater’s business model is kind of unique – they have dozens of sales reps calling customers all day long – so for them to get in the business of making instruments was a step away from their core competency. The Wechter Scheehorn models involved a lot of assembly here in the United States, with the guitars being built in China and the final assembly taking place here. Sweetwater was not used to that kind of overhead and they weren’t used to selling guitars by calling all the smaller music stores all over the country. They wanted to expand the line by offering electric guitars and so on. And while the Wechter brand had some recognition, the Wechter Scheerhorn name had a very good reputation and the resonator guitars were – by far – the best-selling guitars offered by Wechter. So eventually Sweetwater made the decision to pull the plug on the Wechter brand. Fortunately, that meant that I became a free agent. I was in the process of talking with several high-profile companies about either building guitars in China and putting my name on them or something along those lines. The last thing I wanted to do was set up a warehouse somewhere here in the U.S., have containers come in and wind up rejecting guitars for poor quality. I’d known Don Young at National for many years, we were friends. So in our initial conversation I asked if he would be interested in importing guitars from China with my name on them and doing the set up work. It didn’t take him long to answer me. He said “no, but how about having us build the guitars?” Immediately the switch went on and I said “wow, that’s a no-brainer.” It’s a perfect fit for them and for me. What it did for National is give them a full spectrum of instruments – all the way from the pre-war historical National guitars to the contemporary spider style guitars. The motive for me of continuing on with something I didn’t build but designed and had influence on. It’s really about creating a legacy so that when I’m gone my grandchildren can look at say “that’s something my grandfather created.”

I think one thing that is significantly different between the Nati-horn and a Tim-built is the finish. Because of California's strict air quality laws, National shoots a slightly different finish than Tim. This is my impression. I could be wrong. The finish on my mahogany Nati-horn dings real easily. This would be a plus if I wanted to "relic" the guitar. It's definitely getting a lot of rough stage use. Just what I bought it for. I'd be nervious about dragging a $10k Tim-built off to some of the dives I play in. : ). I'm really happy with mine.

Tom, that's what I was wondering about the Nationals. Tim always shoots nitrocellulose lacquer and buffs it. Nowadays many instruments come with some kind of polyurethane, although I thought it was supposed to be tougher. I prefer the look of lacquer but I doubt it has much if any influence on the sound.

Finish material of course has been the subject of long discussions on acoustic guitar forums and among guys hanging out in guitar shops.

The overall appearance is one thing, and as Greg pointed out - particularly on higher end instruments - it likely has little to no effect on the sound. That is, poly has little to no effect on the sound vs. nitro lacquer provided it is thinly applied.

I have been to several Taylor Guitars Road Shows at shops over the years along with taking the tour about five years ago at the Taylor factory down in Tom's neck of the woods in San Diego County, and the Taylor people are pretty insistent that their poly finish since it is very thinly applied doesn't contribute any more - or less, to the sound of the guitar than the finishes Martin and Gibson historically use on their guitars, nitrocellulose lacquer.

Some of the inexpensive import guitars have really shiny/glossy poly finishes and you can sometimes see areas where the stuff is really gooped on there. Pretty sure that has an effect on the overall sound.

Greg's maple Scheerhorn is one of my overall favorite guitars Tim has ever built that I have been able to see (and play a bit on a couple occasions). Along with the great sound it looks fantastic. And this includes some of the considerably more expensive Wish List guitars that I have been around as well. Tim would hand rub aniline dyes into the wood and some of his guitars backs have an almost three dimensional quality when you look at them. National's Eric Smith posted one time on Reso-Nation that they spray the dyes, so it is a different process. No doubt the hand rubbing approach is considerably more time consuming.

Olli hasn't been back to check in on the thread, and I'm curious why he asked the question. I know he has a couple nice modern resonators - is this a GAS attack and now he's thinking Nati-horn vs. finding a nice used Tim-built Scheerhorn?

Tom's mahogany Nati-horn is a true professional grade instrument which no doubt gets the job done very well though it probably doesn't sound exactly like a Tim-built mahogany.

Tom, do you have a #14 spider sitting around so that you can test Dean's theory?

As someone who helps build steel guitars and I've worked with custom builders and much experimenting, I'm a firm believer many elements can make noticeable differences whether it be a small or huge difference. I agree with the theory on the lacquer but I've seen and heard instruments that I felt was overkill on the lacquer and I felt that it choked off some of the tone and sustain. I think there's a fine line to having a nice finish and being able to not choke the tone and sustain. When I first got my Natihorn, I didn't think it sounded bad but it wasn't the sound that I knew it could produce. I didn't really expect that guitar to be 100% of what Tim would buildq, I did feel it was very close. The only thing that I felt that I could physically do to get what I thought would sound more like Tim's guitars was obvious, I knew the National spider was a different element and that Tim, to my knowledge, mostly used a #14. I got the sound I was looking for, in fairness, I only have my guitar with the #14 to compare to other Natihorns. My conclusion was that I felt the #14 was the different ingredient that made my guitar sound more like a Tim built guitar, I think it did, at least to a very acceptable degree. I have to admit that I haven't played a Tim built guitar for some time but I can say that my Natihorn with the #14, satisfies what I hear and to me, sounds very much like a Tim built Scheerhorn.

Dean - I'm considering a new resonator (I currently play a '79 mahogany Dobro with upgrades and an "Ickelhorn") and I'm slightly confused (a normal condition for me )

In your first post you said the Natihorns and Scheerhorns were identical (or could be with a spider switch), but one post later said " But to my ears there's a noticeable difference."

If they're identical and different - err please elaborate.

If there's a "noticeable" difference in tone and/or feel I'd think that's not a good thing, especially for a $3,000 guitar. Instruments that are only " identical in appearance" or "are built with exactly the same materials" may make a difference to some players, but I have no interest in clones for cosmetic purposes.

Unfortunately I'm not stuck at home without the opportunity to hear or play any of them in person (and few people are ever going to see a guitar I play except in pictures) , so I have to go by what I read...and to a *very* cautious extent, what I hear in sound samples (usually over processed or recorded with an iPhone) or see/hear on YouTube (a bizarre gumbo of recording quality).

FWIW ( this is general info for anyone who thinks $10k guitars are ridiculous, weird, or not really justified) - I completely understand why many players (that can afford $10k) would be very happy to pay for a "Tim original" even if the Natihorns were absolutely identical. I've been involved with the vintage and boutique 6-string market for years, and there is a very large market of players of *every* type of instrument - from guitars to pianos to bass drums to hurdy-gurdys - that play and/or collect high-end instrument (new or vintage) *exclusively*, or as a part of their collection.

Original Scheerhorns are projected to be "investment grade" instruments - in the same category as Dumble amplifiers, 1958-60 "burst" Les Pauls ("flamey" ones selling for $200,000-390,000 regardless of how they play or sound), 1950 Fender Broadcasters, "plexi" Marshalls, "Klon" overdrive pedals (sold for $250, now sell for $2k - I own one and use it. Yikes!) and *many* other instruments, amplifiers and effects.

And as far as "boutique" high-quality guitars go (and there certainly are crappy small-shop instruments!), I think it's fine for builder to get whatever the market will bear...and the market doesn't support lousy builders, no matter how great their marketing is.

A $10k Scheerhorn is realistically a "low-to-mid" priced boutique instrument in the overall guitar market - there are many acoustic guitars in the same price range that are produced in much higher numbers. $10k may be "expensive" - even "ridiculous" - to many resonator players, but ones who buy/sell in the vintage or boutique markets would not have sticker shock at all. If getting one didn't involve a wait plus a "roll of the dice" I'd consider one myself.

If you could clarify your thoughts regarding the Natihorns it'd be a big help. Thanks![/i]

While we're waiting for Dean to respond, I will put in a plug for a guitar he has for sale here.

Jim, if I weren't in another period of "GAS Moratorium" the guitar in the link below would be on a stand beside me here in my office/music room. It's a Rayco from British Columbia, and they are making some superb guitars.

I assume it's still for sale. Will somebody please buy it - I can't stand not being able to go for it myself.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Original Scheerhorns are projected to be "investment grade" instruments - in the same category as Dumble amplifiers, 1958-60 "burst" Les Pauls ("flamey" ones selling for $200,000-390,000 regardless of how they play or sound), 1950 Fender Broadcasters, "plexi" Marshalls, "Klon" overdrive pedals (sold for $250, now sell for $2k - I own one and use it. Yikes!) and *many* other instruments, amplifiers and effects.

Yeah - except a Tim-built Scheerhorn is still a resonator guitar aka dobro.

We see really nice mid to late '50s D-8 Stringmasters selling for ballpark $1000-$1200 while their Fender "cousins" from that era like Teles and Strats sell for many times the price.

I think "dobro" is going to have to become much more of a household word in 30 to 40 years for Scheerhorns to be selling for prices in the general neighborhood of prewar Martins.

Jim, I meant identical in size via measurements, scale length, soudposts and baffle, size and thickness of the neck, actually, there is one difference, the scale length is a little longer than 25 inches, but then again, my guitar is a limited edition guitar so I don't know for sure if that is a standard scale length for the Natihorns, I'm also not sure that Tim might be building some of his guitars with the longer scale as well. As far as sound, even Tim's guitars don't all sound the same but I'm a believer that the cone and the spider play an intricate part in the sound. I also never meant to say that with a National spider, that it didn't sound like a Scheerhorn, it very much sounded like a Scheerhorn to a certain degree, that's why I felt the change to a #14 spider would get me even closer to a Tim built because that's what he uses in his guitars. As far as identical goes, even Tim builds his guitars a little different, but when I said identical, I was only referring to construction and dimensions. But hey,I play dobro for a living, and I'm a tinkerer, that's just always been my interest in it. So I'm telling you from my own personal experiences and my honest opinion, these guitars are worth the money, they are not Chinese made and they are made out of solid woods with good quality parts, Tim Scheerhorn would not be associated with them if they weren't. All in all, I'm just saying, the #14 spider is my personal preference, and from what I get out of my guitar, I can tell a difference.

Almost forgot to mention, my Rayco is still for sale and yes they do build a superb guitar.

I want to put something in perspective, I saw the word clone mentioned. Just to this for an example, if I was building guitars for Emmons and I built the guitar completely, does that mean I just built a clone or is it still not an Emmons. My point is, is that Natihorns are still Scheerhorns, Scheerhorn's name is still on it, just like it is on the one's he builds, he instructed them to build it that way because that's his design and for the most part, the way he builds his. So to me, that doesn't make it clone when the originator is involved with the company. Just an observation.

I would like to hear what Tim has to add to this discussion.

Me too, I'm sure he could add plenty - but I have never seen him post here or on any of
the reso specific forums.

But there is indeed a first time for everything.

Area 51

Dean - gotcha! Thanks - makes perfect sense. I agree they are great guitars (from what I've heard through studio monitors - I can't get out and hear them in person). I also agree about the importance of the "mechanics" - interior design & body depth, cone, spider, etc - in the sound.

I am one of "those", however that is absolutely sure the wood also has some affect on the sound - as does the quality and type of overall construction. Although it's not as important on resonator guitars, even the weight of tuning keys has an affect on tone and sustain of 6 strings, 12 strings and basses - both acoustic and electric.

I'd probably be all over that Rayco if I hadn't just committed to a big leaf maple Appalachian!

"I think "dobro" is going to have to become much more of a household word in 30 to 40 years for Scheerhorns to be selling for prices in the general neighborhood of prewar Martins."

Except earlier Scheerhorns that sold for under $10k are already selling for more than the original price, and there are reportedly some folks on the "wish list" that are willing to pay any lucky recipient a premium to get a new Scheerhorn.

These are not normal "resonator guitars" or "steel guitars", which I agree do not send up "buy me now" flags in the vintage market. They are considered by many the "gold standard" and are already collectible - there are many unusual exceptions to the norm in the vintage market - and "Tim Scheerhorns" are certainly one of them.

Are they *that* much better than anything else on the market? Probably not, but it simply doesn't matter. Once the market has placed a specific type/brand/model of guitar on a pedestal it's nearly impossible to knock them off. There are even fairly common, complete POS guitars that have become collectors' items because of celebrity use, brand name, magazine articles - or pure rumor. And no matter how hard vintage dealers and collectors try to eradicate 'em they just *won't* go away!

Remember the awful Fender "Custom" made from leftover 12-string parts, with a goofy, part-chopped-off headstock & rectangular hunk 'o wood on the back that likes to pop out through the thick poly finish?

Got three grand?

Hey Mark, how are you😊?
I've been checking the replies with great interest... Thanks to everybody for your insight on the subject.
The reason for asking the question is, of course GAS related.
I've been really happy with my two handmade resos, no problem there.
BUT a year ago I tried my friend's original Scheerhorn in Nashville and I haven't been able to get that tone out of my head since. I didn't have my guitars to compare it to but the initial reaction was "oh s}#%t, where can I get one,now!". I can't and won't pay 10 000 for a guitar so the 3000$ variation looks tempting.
I guess I'll have to find a way to get to test drive the Natihorn somewhere...

There he is!

Doing fine, Olli.

I know that Scheerhorn GAS attack feeling. I've certainly had it. Some of Tim's guitars have knocked me out more than others, but this is of course the nature of acoustic instuments in general.

One year at ResoSummit when Tim was doing some work on my Clinesmith he loaned me a guitar to use for that afternoon's classes.

I fully expected that when I opened the case for the next class to see an imported Wechter/Scheerhorn (Frugal'horn) but it turned out to be one of his personal Scheerhorns.

I didn't want to give the guitar back later that afternoon. I actually entertained - for a few minutes anyway - giving Tim a deposit check to get on the Wish List. I was kind of swept up in the moment. Then reality set in. I could imagine one day in the future when it came time to pay the piper as the guitar was close to being ready, to come home and see that my wife had thrown all my stuff out on the front lawn and the locks would be changed on the doors.

So I came back to reality.

It all worked out - Tim had installed one of his new cones in my Clinesmith - the several years old Quarterman sounded "tired" - and he tweaked the setup so that it almost sounded like a brand new guitar and I was once again a happy picker.

Mark, I have plans to try a #14 spider bridge in my Nati-horn. It might take a while, but I'll report back on my findings.

I've been timid to open it up, but it's time. And do the old Auldridge yearly cone cleanup and dust blow-out on it. Probably time.

BTW, Greg Booth's axe is my gold standard for tone. (Although a lot of it is Greg, too)

I retired this year. The gravey is thinner now. I'm on a "GAS moratorium" as well. : )