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Topic: C6th: Why is the high D out of order? |
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 1:15 pm |
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Those who use a high D on their C6th invaribly use it as the 1st string, making the 2nd string E the highest string. I've set my D between the the C and E and I find it a lot easier to understand.
Is there some logic behind having D as the first string? Or was it just laziness on the part of players who were abandoning the high G string, not wanting to turn their guitars upside down?
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 1:22 pm
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Bobby,
It's part of that same conspiricy that invented the E9 chromatic tuning specifically for the purpose of confusing me.
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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 2:02 pm
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| Quote: |
| Is there some logic behind having D as the first string? |
Yes, there is logic to it. The C6 tuning is built on stacking a combination of major and minor thirds. From string 9 up, it's F,A,C,E,G,A,C,E. There is an interval of a second between G and A, but pedal 7 allows you to corrct that, so that you now have F,A,C,E,G,B,D,E, thereby extending the stacking of the thirds. The point is that the open tuning with or without pedal 7 is built on thirds. This allows ready access using 3 picks (thumb and two finger) to most traditional extended chords, which is why it works so well for Western swing and traditional jazz. If you add a D anywhere in the tuning, it is no longer built on thirds unless you can find a way to adjust for that. Now, with that being said, this does not mean you shouldn't add a D if it floats your boat, just that if you do, then you interrupt the logic of the tuning.
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 2:04 pm
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Bobby-I don't know why, but it makes some sense.
One of the ways to have the D in the proper sequence is to tune to G on the 1st string and drop the 2nd string E to D on a knee lever. Jr knight had this on his D10 Carter which I bought, years ago. Reece has used that pull on his Bb6 , if I remember correctly.
I have tried it both ways and can't decide which is better for me. It is very useful like that.
I won't go into all the possibilities at this time.....al 
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 2:33 pm
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Jeff,
What you say makes sense for those who have a high G. Those who have switched to D have already "interrupted the logic" by recognizing a need for closer intervals on the high strings.
If you're going to do that, what is the logic behind putting those two string out of order? That's my question.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 11 March 2005 at 03:11 PM.] |
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 3:02 pm
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I always assumed the D string was a change from the previously-more-usual high G string in that position, and that's the only reason it's there.
I 'spose you could put it anywhere you like.
-John |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 4:52 pm
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Cuz that was what Buddy had on his C neck.
Actually, it made it much easier to transition some E9th right hand technique to the C neck when I was starting out.
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www.tyack.com
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 5:04 pm
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In this vein, and sorry if this query's already been answered umpteen times, but: is there a course, or forum info, on best ways to utilize a C6 with D on top, no high G?
Like Sr. Lee, I have the luxury of a 12-string C6, so still have high G as 3rd string, D as second, and F as first. Nice tuning, but I've often wondered if having to skip the G when using the D makes typical runs or scales harder to execute. I just don't really know how most pro's use that D string. Thanks for insights, Forumites! |
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Don McClellan
From:
California/Thailand
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 6:06 pm
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| I have both the G and D on top of my 11 string tuning and I can tell you there is almost no need at all for the G and I could not live without the D. If the D was between the E and C it would screw up many of your strums, grips and grabs. Don't do it. All though it would make single notes a little easier. That's not a good enough reason to mess up the intervals for chording. What Jeff said. I also find that the D is almost always useful as a chord tone, scale tone or melody note of some kind at nearly every position. Its amazingly handy. [This message was edited by Don McClellan on 11 March 2005 at 06:34 PM.] |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 6:48 pm
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Don-That was well explained. It is very handy up there and DOES mess up the grips if it is between the C and E.
So I keep it on the outside. However, to get a little off , I use E6 tuning and my D is F#, very handy just like E9 in a way....al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Billy Wilson
From:
El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 6:59 pm
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| b0b,Tom Morrell has some similar to what you are talking about on his non pedal E tuning. High to low: G# F# E C# B G# F# E D B |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 8:31 pm
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| Buddy Emmons was asked this question on his "Live in Denver" CD on the bonus "Q & A with Buddy" track. Among other things, he said it makes it easier to do fast scale-type runs. Much like the chromatic strings on E9 do, I assume. |
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Michael Haselman
From:
St. Paul
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Posted 11 Mar 2005 9:50 pm
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I'm just finishing up "Basic C6" and in addition to being very handy for single string runs, Buddy shows some interesting chord voicings with the D. The main one is the 7th chord with the 5th pedal, hitting strings 1-3-4-5.
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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 6:54 am
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Being a nut on stacked thirds tunings, I like that explanation from a logic standpoint, but I find PSG players not too logical in general.
It strikes me that the reason for the D being outside might have to do with the difficulty of reprogramming the PSGs that were around when the D became wanted by someone. Putting it in ascending frequency order is no worse than the F# above E in the
E9 tuning; good for triplets & scales, bad for strums.
From the E9/B6 universal standpoint (I use Eb/Bb6) one has to choose the top string order to favor either the E9 or C6 format. I choose in favor of the C6 but adding a note. The top strings in C would be E,G,A,then D. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 7:27 am
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| Is pedal steel the only stringed instrument with "out of order" strings? |
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Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 7:53 am
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Another instrument with strings out of order?
- ukulele. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 8:05 am
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| 5 string banjo, if you allow that a banjo is a musical instrument. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 9:27 am
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I'm currently working on trying to learn an E6/A6 kindof diatonic tuning (on my 8-string reso) that seems to have a lot of possibilities. Transposed up to the 3rd fret:
G
E
D
C
B
A
G
E
From a "G" perspective, it has the I, II, IV and VI chords local, with the needed dominants and easy slant away.
From a "C" perspective it has the I, III, V and VI chords local with the dom9 slant chords nearby.
Where it shines is all those "E9-country-diad" scale runs.[This message was edited by chas smith on 12 March 2005 at 09:29 AM.] |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 12 Mar 2005 10:34 am
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| Chas ,that is like the Alkire E-harp tuning E,C#,B,A,G#,F#,F,E,C# the tuning I learned on. Joe |
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Buddy Emmons
From:
Hermitage, TN USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Mar 2005 8:01 am
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I placed the D on the first string of C6 for the same reason I put the F# and D# on the first two strings of E9th: to add something new while preserving the integrity of the tunings. Isolating the additional string(s) allowed you to keep on truckin’ while learning how to apply the new notes at your own pace.
As for logic, it was more logical to me to not fragment a standard tuning and have to skip strings to arrive at the same end result. In either case, I saw a need for diatonic scale notes in the top end of both tunings and adding them as I did was a simple solution to a major problem.
[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 13 March 2005 at 08:18 AM.] |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 13 Mar 2005 9:05 am
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Mr. Emmons SIR!
Spock would have been proud of you...logical!
About when was this done, and did you replace the a G with the D?
It is interesting to speculate where the PSG would be if it were not for you and your applied ideas. |
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Papa Joe Pollick
From:
Swanton, Ohio
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Posted 13 Mar 2005 9:26 am
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Dang, I loooooove this forum..Answer right from THE man himself..I'll crawl back in the bushes now and play Peep n Watch..
P.J. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 13 Mar 2005 9:38 am
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Ed, I don't know when Big E made the G to D change, but Paul Franklin Jr. told me about the change in the Bill Lawrence room during DJ Convention week in October of 1977. I was up from Texas with Alvin Crow's western swing band.
I'm sure he doesn't remember the incident, but since it changed my playing style, I certainly do.
He said, quote: "If you want to play in a minor key or play modern music, you need to put a D on that first string," unquote.
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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2005 10:14 am
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If I understand it correctly then, the out-of-order-ness (what's the technical term for this?) is there to preserve the legacy of the older tunings. A logical idea to be sure, and it also explains the roots of my confusion.
My first pedal steel tuning, born of ignorance, was a D69 pentatonic. I had to step away from that to learn the traditional E9th and C6th. To me, putting the D back "in order" represents a return to my original view of the pedal steel. That's why it doesn't mess up my "grips and grabs".
I'm not suggesting that anyone should follow my example. The wealth of instructional material is all written for the standard tunings. I have to do mental gyrations to even talk about C6th with other steel players. It only works for me because in my intense formative years I played an inline pentatonic tuning. Had I not done that, the outside D string would probably be easier for me now.
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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
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