Have you ever heard of a material called EKOA?

[Mike Perlowin]

There's a company called Blackbird Guitars
(Blackbirdguitar.com) that makes instruments out of bot carbon fiber, like the Millennium, and this material, which is also synthetic. It is made from Flax linen and bioresin. (I have no idea what those are.)

This might be a good material to make steels.

I saw the guitars at NAMM, but I was unable to hear them over the noise of 150,000 teenagers playing their Hendrix licks at top volume.

[Storm Rosson]

Mike did I detect a twinge of disdain with the 150K teeners playing (?) their fav Hendrix lick at let's say 130db ? LOL...although kids still gettin into hendrix is mostly a good thing, sometimes I think they should have the venue posted "WARNING!! teenagers with electric guitars and 1 Hendrix lick, ENTER ONLY IF YOU HAVE PRE_EXISTING HEARING LOSS AND?OR BRAIN DAMAGE"...Stormy

[Mike Perlowin]

Mike did I detect a twinge of disdain with the 150K teeners playing (?) their fav Hendrix lick at let's say 130db ?

I'd have more respect for them if they didn't INSIST That Jerry Garcia was the greatest steel player the world has ever seen. {"If this guy Lloyd Green is so great, how come CSNY didn't hire him instead of Jerry?")

Getting back to the topic, this material looks very promising. I'm sending the information to Kyle at MSA. Maybe he will introduce a new model based on this. Maybe some of the other builders will want to take a look at it.

[b0b]

Flax linen and bio resin doesn't sound like a good mix for strength. What makes you think it might be a good material for steel guitars?

[Mike Perlowin]

I don't know Bobby. I'm just throwing out the thought. Maybe it will work, maybe not. We won't know till somebody investigates this further.

Remember, 15 years ago people dissed the Millennium, calling it Tupperware. The piece of carbon fiber forced MSA to discontinue the Mille, but the guitar themselves are just fine.

[Adam Tracksler]

sounds a lot like micarta, which is used for knife handles, and is a kind of fiberglass...

[Malcolm McMaster]

Mike, I think reason for discontinuing the Milly, was the huge rise in price for carbon fibre and the amount of bodies the maker of them wanted MSA to order, in the hundreds I believe.

[Erv Niehaus]

And then you have Bakelite, a mixture of ground up walnut shells and resin.
It is reported that those guitars sound OK.

[b0b]

And then you have Bakelite, a mixture of ground up walnut shells and resin.
It is reported that those guitars sound OK.

Yes, but they weren't weren't very stable. I don't think a pedal steel made from bakelite would hold its tuning very well.

[Erv Niehaus]

Bob,
Besides that, Bakelite was quite brittle and broke easily. Every once in a while you see a Rickenbacher
that has had the neck snapped off and repaired.

[Mark Eaton]

I've heard of this Ekoa stuff and had done a little reading previously. It appears to be another technology with somewhat different materials but related to the process of carbon fiber construction.

One area where I have some knowledge and background is in the sport of cycling, both road and mountain biking. I've been around the sport for decades and have been blown away by the evolution in technology. If you're ever watching the Tour de France on TV, carbon fiber bike frames and parts have pretty much taken over the peloton. Virtually every rider of the almost 200 in the event are on carbon fiber bikes. You'll see guys flying down roads in the Alps on 16 lb. bikes at 60 mph that might be a tenth of their body weight. These frames are tremendously stiff and flex very little. Imagine the torque being applied to these featherweight machines as the riders negotiate the curves of high speed descents.

Using the above example, I see no reason why Ekoa couldn't be used for a pedal steel along the same lines as the MSA Millennium. I don't doubt that it could be made to be stiffer and resist torsion more than any wood body pedal steel.

Here is a video of long-time Bay Area guitarist Henry Kaiser demonstrating one of the acoustic flattops, followed by a visit to the shop in San Francisco where they are made.

This stuff and the associated carbon fiber are light years beyond materials along the lines of bakelite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spxIKFuI5nk

[Mike Perlowin]

I wrote to Kyle at MSA about this. Let's see what, if anything comes out of it.

[Kyle Bennett]

Mike,

The high cost of the Millennium was in part due to the type of carbon used to produce the molded body. However, there were many other factors that drove the price. The body has a foam core insert on the top surface with a seamless blend to the solid front and rear aprons. The foam core provides the body with extreme resonate capability. The carbon fiber on each body was laid up with CAD assistance to offset the torsion cause by the string pressure incurred by the guitar strings. The body also has contoured endplates to accommodate the 2 degrees of draft angle cause by the carbon mold around the perimeter of the body. Needless to say, these were very labor intensive.

The Millennium carbon fiber body was and is a very complex body. Those that called it “Tuperware” were simply ignorant about the product and what was involved to produce it.

We don’t have any experience with Flax Linen. At this time, MSA is not pursuing another medium for our products. As you know, there is a very limited market for very expensive steels.

[Rich Upright]

I get a lot of rock guys who think Jerry Garcia,Jimmy Page, and Steve Howe were the best "Steel pedal" players.

[Bobby D. Jones]

There are many materials made by saturating dry materials with a hardening liquid. Artificial Ivory is made with white paper being impregnated with a resin then cured.

When I worked at Westinghouse we had 4' X 8' sheets of MICARTA from 1/16 inch to 1 inch. We used it for all sorts of chutes, switch mounts, shields and such. It was strong, smooth, waterproof and did not conduct electricity. On thick materials we drilled, tapped it and used regular machine bolts to attach items to it.

30 years ago or so Melvin Forbes of NULA was one of the early people who developed using fiberglass, Carbon fiber and foam to build light weight rifle stocks. Sounds similar to the Millentium Guitar building process.

A company named Raintree uses a carbon fiber material to make flattop 6 string guitars.

I have always wondered why someone did not get a person involved in building laminated recurve bows for archery, Involved in making a fiberglass backing, maple core, fiberglass belly laminate to make a top for a steel guitar body.

[Mike Perlowin]

Thanks for your input on this thread Kyle.

Whatever your reasons were for discontinuing the Millennium, I'm glad you made them, and I couldn't be more pleased with mine. I plan on playing them for the rest of my life, and if I ever bought another steel, it would be another MSA.

[Mel Bergman]

My very good friend is the Operations manager/ chief luthier at Blackbird. Their shop in SF is great, and Paul really knows his stuff. I'll ask him about this, and will report back!

Mel

[Micky Byrne]

Stick with Maple....pretty and time tested

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

[Mike Perlowin]

There's nothing wrong with maple, but my Carbon Fiber Millies sound just as good, and 25 pounds lighter.

[Mel Bergman]

Here is what my friend Paul said re my inquiry:

"Ekoa would make a good steel, similar to carbon fiber".

So there you have it. If any mfg is interested, PM me and I can make an. Introduction.

Mel

[john widgren]

Sounds a lot like a variant of Pakka wood.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Packa Wood, Future Wood another name are water proof, strong, can be polished with no finish. Drilled and tapped like metal. These woods are vacuumed and pressured to absorb about 70 percent of weight of the resin. Then baked. Knife handle scales of these woods are nearly as heavy a steel or brass. Would make one heavy steel guitar.

[K Maul]

CSNY used Garcia because he was around and was a buddy of Crosby's. That's all. He did play that ONE cool note,though. Dekleys were made of Pakka wood,right?

[Malcolm McMaster]

Agreed Mike, love my Milly, sounds as good as any other steel I Have heard or tried, plus lightweight.