D10 or UNIVERSAL

[Jimmy Gibson]

This topic has probably been put up on the Forum before, but did a search and came up with nothing, so I thought I would get some opinions on what you prefer a D10 or a 12 String Universal and why.



Jimmy.

[Ian Rae]

Your deceptively simple question will generate a lot of answers. I settle for what I can lift, but I miss the D10.

[Alan Simon]

I've said this before on a recent post but I'll say it again cause I like to hear myself talk. I love the Uni 12!!

[Donny Hinson]

I like a D10 for the two distinct thought processes you have to use, and the two consequently different sounds you get. Also, there are a lot more choices in available D10s, and it sure doesn't hurt to have another "good neck" handy when you pop a string!

I also read a quote once (maybe by Buddy Emmons?) that said whenever you try to combine the two necks, you lose a little of each. But in the final analysis, I don't really care much what other people use. How you play is more important (to me) than what you play.

[Tom Gorr]

There is nothing better than both.

There is a place where each of them shine.

That said... A Uni is roughly equivalent to an 8x6 D10.

Until you get to a full C6 coped...eg.. 8x8.... the Uni gets it done.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I played a D-10 for 8 years before switching to U-12 in 1976. It's the basics of a basic copedent D-10. Jimmy Day probably would have been able to make the switch easily. I like the advantage of being able to play in and out of both tunings in a passage. I also like the B to D lever 9th string on the E9th (unique to the Tuning). Plus, the ability to use the low G# 10th string as a harmony string on the E9th (I lower it to F# along with the 6th string G# to F#.
If I played a single 10 string, I would have a B as the 9th string and G# for a 10th string with the universal pulls on those two strings.
I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D/D#.

[Daniel McKee]

If your already an E9th player and want to try c6th (B6th on Universal) then going Universal might be fun to try. I think if I went looking for another guitar Id go 12 string. Not all D-10 models are heavy but my old Miller is and I dont play much c6th anyway.

[Mike Perlowin]

I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D/D#.

So do I.

The choice is, like so many other things about the steel, completely subjective. You should try out both, and see which you prefer.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Skip the U12.

In my opinion the U12 system degrades the elegance and flexibility of the standard E9 tuning. Which already is a universal tuning if you learn the neck.

I switched from an S10 E9 to the standard U12 tuning for about 3 years when I was starting my professional career. Once I dug in deep enough I switched to a D10.
For me the U12 was a cumbersome waste of time.

With all that keep in mind that this is ONLY my personal opinion based on my needs as a player. The U 12 does suit many players that are way better Then I will ever be.

[Henry Matthews]

I tried a 12 string, think it was extended E9th. I also tried the Universal tuning which would take me while to get used too. There are few that really impress me on a 12 stringer, David Wright and Junior Knight being two of them. I don't think they are lacking in anything on a 12 string but that being said, I much prefer D-10's, besides that, they look much more impressive, LOL. I've had people ask me why I had two necks and I told them if the top one breaks I can just go to the bottom one. They were satisfied with the answer.

[Dennis Detweiler]

If anyone has played the D-10 for a number of years and gets accustomed to it, it's a hard switch. It's understandable. During the 8 years that I played a D-10, I was playing country cover tunes of the 1970's which was over 90% E9th. I played some C6th, but was also finding the nuances of the 6th on E9th. So, the switch to U-12 was an easy transition for me. If you're into country, the E9th is your money neck. Western swing and jazz, it's the 6th neck. The U-12 has been the best of both worlds for me. Traditionally speaking.
Another heavy option is a D-12. All you need on it is a set of wheels, a tongue, hitch and taillights.

[Kenneth Kotsay]

I owned a MSA XL 12, just couldn't get use to playing 12 strings on a single neck, went back to a D-10.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I had the same problem going from 10 strings to 12 strings. I was playing in a band 3 nights per week, practicing at home on the 12 and playing the D-10 on the jobs. The depth perception between 10 and 12 strings drove me nuts (or normal?). I finally just jumped in and started playing the U-12 on the jobs. I struggled for a few nights, but that's what it took to get settled.

[Ian Rae]

I used to play bass. After going from four strings to ten, ten to twelve was nothing. Well, not much anyway

[Charles Bell]

i prefer a double neck over universal..sometimes on a long job (a dance for instance) where the band leader throws solos back and forth between the players to make time- i'll use the C neck just to have a different sound (tone/style) to break up the same old same old

[mike nolan]

I like D-10 guitars, the E and C tunings are really works of deep genius.... I do, however play 12 string Uni guitars most of the time, cause I almost never play country gigs, and never play swing gigs. Most of my work is blues, pop, or rock. The Uni works great for that job. Every time I sit back down at one of my S-10 E9 guitars, I consider ditching the whole Uni thing.....

[Quentin Hickey]

I grew with the statement that when you combine two necks into one that you do loose a little from each neck but I believe you gain other features. The advantage of playing into one neck makes it so easy to switch from 9th to 6th. If you listen to Maurice Anderson he really makes out the uni running for chords etc. That said, dedicated C6 tunning is is great as well. I personally prefer to have separate necks but wouldn't hesitate to play a uni if need be for some circumstance. I have alot of respect for anyone who plays different tunnings. It's hard enough to learn the Nashville tunning let alone getting into the 6th and13th tunnjngs

[Dennis Detweiler]

Looking at it from an open tuning, you have a 12 string 6th tuning and a 12 string E9th tuning.

From the c6th point of view, you'd have an extended C6th tuning on the high side if you tune the 2nd string to open C# on the Uni instead of D#. In comparison, high to low first 3 strings on C6th would be (G,D,A)or (5,2,6.

On the E9th side of the 12 string Universal you'd have extended strings on the low end. The last 3 strings would be (G#,E,B).

To me, that's an advantage of both 10 string necks into a single 12. The basic floor pedals and knee levers of two 10 string necks are still there on a U-12.

It only gets hairy when you add more knees or floors. That's why a few Uni players prefer a locking lever on the Eb knee, freeing that leg to play more knee levers.
However, the A,B,C floor pedals and knees can be used with the 6th also.

Plus, playing A&B pedals gives you an open A6th as an option for single note playing.

It gets confusing, but really not if you stay on the U-12.

[Jerry Hayes]

I got my first S-12 in 1977 which was a ShoBud with 3&4... I kept adding things and changing stuff around until I was into the U-12. Around the end of the eighties I bought a used E-12 at Scotty's convention in the consignment room for $1,200 which had 7 floor pedals and 6 knee levers. It had two right knee right levers so I took one of them off because it didn't feel right using the volume pedal and trying to slide in and out between those two levers. I also sent it back to BMI and got an 8th pedal added......

I kept at the U-12 for a few years until I decided to work out a setup in which it would be easier to play some of my guitar stuff as I've always been mainly a lead guitarist... What I settled on from trial and error is basically an extended E9th with the 2nd and 9th strings tuned to C#..

I have my basic A & B pedals on the 2nd and 3rd slots with no C pedal. I have a pedal 8 which is used for Ralph Mooney licks as it raises only the 4th string to F#... My pedals 4, 5 and 6 for the 6th type stuff. Pedals 7 & 8 are used with the right foot....... Here's what it looks like....JH in Va.

[Scott Denniston]

Aside from the obvious advantage of having a smaller load to carry with the U-12 and being able to easily switch flavors mid-tune I'll stick with the D-10. To me they're two whole different worlds and I like being in one at a time (if that makes sense). This is from someone who is still getting his feet wet on C6 after all these years. One big consideration for me would be the lack of learning materials dedicated to U-12 and the abundance of E9 and C6 courses available. I mean you might find a U-12 course here or there if you look hard but E9 & C6 courses are everywhere. It's easy to intellectually see how this or that change can be done another way but that's really not how most of us learn to PLAY an instrument. I think we learn by copying and then seeing what we did so it can be retained and repeated and used in varying combinations.
All that said, I guess if U-12 had been presented to me first and there were tons of material to practice on it (without having to transcribe everything from C6 & E9 to U-12) it probably would have made more sense to me to go U-12.

[Douglas Schuch]

There is no definite answer to this question. You have to find the answer that works for you. But here are my thoughts.

Background - after getting started with a Stage One, I was unsure which choice to make in moving on. I bought a U-12. I learned a lot, but the reality is U-12 is always making compromises. As noted above, a U-12 can emulate a D-10 with 4 or 5 (or 6?) levers. I find that, even though I am a perpetual beginner, I like having lots of levers to get the changes I want. And where you put those levers involves so many compromises in U-12 that I eventually gave up and switched to D-10. I found that more than 4 pedals on a neck only led to me hitting the wrong pedal. So my D-10 is set up with 4 pedals for each neck. The other changes are on levers. I prefer this. If a player is comfortable with multiple pedals (re: Lane Gray, who dreams of a Uni with 10 pedals) then they might reach different conclusions. That is a perfectly acceptable answer.

Weight - this one is not as big as people like to make out. My loaded Zum Uni was just about the same weight as my 8x8 Zum D-10. If weight is the issue, get aluminum legs, get split cases, order an Excel, or buy a used Millennium.

Do you need 8x8 (or 10x10 or ?)? Again, find your own answer. No number of pedals and levers will ever make me as good as Tom Morrell on his 0x0 steel. But I also am not as good as Paul Franklin, who plays a fairly loaded steel.

So find what works for you and makes you happy. You do not have to make a final decision - If you buy one, then decide the other merits a try, what do you lose? Shipping and maybe a few bucks churn. That is very cheap for all the happiness each of my steels has brought me, and I still suck! The worst decision is no decision. I can think of few things I have spend money on that brought me as much happiness as ANY of my pedal steels.

[Tom Gorr]

I would take a Uni over a 10 string E9 any day. There are very few compromises and a whole lot more comparing those two.

My Uni coped... is 5x5.... it is really versatile and intuitive for such a concentrated coped.

However I am on a C6 kick these days so I prefer the D10 only because it is a complete C6 coped ... but my optimum guitar would be a 12 string 5x5 E9B6 on the front and a fully built out C6 on the back. ... but then I wouldn't want to move it. .. lol.


no easy answers

[Micky Byrne]

Hey Grandad Jim (Private joke) .... you already know for you a universal does the job. The weight for a start for us older players...plus you can get most of the stuff of a D10 on a universal...and you've had a few.

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Sho-Bud and Carter universals



Jimmy.[/quote]

[Christopher Woitach]

If you view Uni as 2 tunings on one neck, the only advantage seems to be weight - in that kind of thinking, you are losing changes from both necks, and might as well play D10.

If, however, you think of whatever kind of Uni tuning you use (for me it's Bb6) as one big tuning, to be played with an entirely different approach, it's more apples and oranges - an entirely different animal to choose or not depending on your preference. I would never charectorize Uni tuning as a "waste of time", just a different way of looking at playing steel guitar.

I love Bb6, and am unlikely to ever move to a D10 or E9/B6, which I started on. Just my taste, steel guitar is a very variable instrument that can cover a lot of concepts.

[Jerry Hayes]

My S-12 BMI with 8 & 5 is the guitar which I take on a gig that I play only steel. Most of my gigs are mainly lead guitar or guitar & steel. On those I take my Marlen which is 4 & 4 but it'll handle most anything thrown at you because it's two pedals for the country & two pedals for the 6th stuff. You can do "Nitelife" very easily on this set up as "Together Again" or any of the country shuffle stuff plus with the lower bass strings rock and roll or blues is all right there. Here's the Marlen setup.......JH in Va.