Machine Shops

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 8 Jan 2005 7:49 pm

Been tinkering around the old workshop for a while. I've been drawing, erasing, re-drawing parts diagrams for a home-built steel for about 2 years now. I've finally got enough free time to actually pursue this adventure, and was wondering if there are any machine shops that would be interested in doing low volume, prototype work for the mechanics? Or, maybe I'd be better off to rig a few things here for this type of work. Unfortunately, my wife would kill me if I took out a second mortgage to buy all the milling and cnc equipment that I want. Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

James

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 8 Jan 2005 10:53 pm

You might contact Jim West (jwest1950@sbcglobal.net). He is a great guy, fellow forumite, and expert machinist.[This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 08 January 2005 at 10:58 PM.]

Tommy Roten · Post by **Tommy Roten** » 9 Jan 2005 11:31 am

http://www.emachineshop.com/faq/general.htm

------------------
Franklin D-10, MSA D-10, Goodrich, ProfexII, Mosvalve, Eminence 12"
www.tommy-steel.com
pertrot@frisurf.no

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 9 Jan 2005 1:41 pm

try don burrows at bsgsteel or wingingit@adelphia.net great man to deal with.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 9 Jan 2005 2:03 pm

James.

Let me give you some info on the things I did.
I ordered the changer,headgear and the legs from Wayne Link.
The aluminum necks I came across by chance so I had them laying around.
Everything else I made by hand using a saw a file and a hamer.I made 3 steel guitars so far and they sound great.Right now I am in the proces of making another prototype.
When this one comes out o.k I will produce them using CNC machinery.

IMO the use of CNC machinery is to expensive for just one steel guitar.If you have someone close by and they have the machines and they would not mind setting you up with some parts then take the opportunity with both hands.If not!!Then make your first steel the way I did.

Don't rush in to it.Take your time.First... finish all the drawings.And when you think that you have everything in place start building.I can assure you that you will do fine.

But again(and I can't say this quite often enough)do not buy machines that you CAN'T use.Or can't operate.
Check my website out...become a member and we can talk some more about building steels.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6
E.S.G.F.

[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 09 January 2005 at 02:54 PM.]

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 9 Jan 2005 5:05 pm

First of all, CNC machines are not used for prototypes (generally). They are long part run machines. Program the part and run several hundred, or several thousand parts. Then shut her down and move on to the next part.

For one up parts any machinist with a mill and a proto-track can have the part done before the CNC operator has his tool rack set up.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 9 Jan 2005 5:13 pm

my wife would kill me if I took out a second mortgage to buy all the milling and cnc equipment that I want.

You probably don't need cnc, but a DRO is really convenient. If you were planning on turning the garage into a "hobby shop" you could get a used Bridgeport mill in the $3-5k range. Be sure that it comes with a table vise and as much tooling as possible. Good tooling is very expensive.

You could also get a small Logan lathe (not the best, but not bad) for $1-3k. Then you'll need a phase converter to get the 220v 3-phase to run them.

My experience with tools is, the more you have, the more things you can do, and even though this is how I make my living, I still use the mill practically every day, for something or other.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 9 Jan 2005 6:03 pm

After 35yrs.owning country shop,poor boy style,sitting here shaking my head!poor fellow,don't know what he's in for!!it's a hard road,i bought one machine at a time,hunting every deal i could find,worked long hrs.i know,we gotta have that challenge.i built 6 single 10s,one pc at a time,you will always,just need something else,some other mach.never ending deal.running a job shop,never had time to do my own stuff.and first thing you know,like me the 35yrs.have gone by.now after open heart surgery,i just walk out and look at all that stuff,and remember the good old days.Jeff Newman told me one time,to let the guys that do that stuff,build um,and put my time in playing,and i would be much better off.well i didn't listen,and most won't.the bug is there,and it is something a person just gotta do!!thats why i'm a machinist today,i couldn't afford to buy a good steel,so i'll build it!!i've got a fortune in bridgeport mills,brown-sharp auto screw machines,lathes,benders,welders,surface grinders,presses,ect.yes it can be done,but is it worth it in the end? sitting here laughing!!know where your coming from!!what if i had just practiced,and played,man i might of been in nashville!! Good Luck My Friend, not trying to discourage you,just lots of headachs and,you can buy lots of parts from others that make them,but,you will have a bunch of money in them tooooooo
farris

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 9 Jan 2005 6:47 pm

Farris, I know what you're saying. I spend lots of time tinkering with things that I know would be better spent practicing. But, I just can't help myself. And you're right about the cost. I'm sure I'll have one of a kind $10,000 guitar that I couldn't sell for $10, but at least it'll be mine. Hey, all those college economics classes are already paying off... Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

Chas, youre right about the CNC. I have a brother-in-law that works at a plant where they do large scale metal work (bridges, heavy equipment, etc) and he works with cnc equipment maintaining it and updating the ladder logic for new projects. He wants me to build a pc based cnc. I already have about 7 resolvers, two 18" ball-screw drives and a prarie digital interface for the pc. Just another project that I haven't had time to get around to.

Ron, I've been meaning to talk with you about this project. I've seen where you have built several guitars. I guess it's the challenge of actually building one that excites me.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 10 Jan 2005 2:48 pm

Hi James from the older Texas James Banks. I haven't heard from you in a while. Good to see you are still working with or on steel guitars.

James

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 10 Jan 2005 9:23 pm

Well hey James, its great to hear from you. Yes it has been a while. I'd like to catch up with what's been going on. Send me an email and we'll talk.

James
jbanks@sonet.net

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 11 Jan 2005 6:25 pm

I think it's a GREAT idea to follow your dream ( if your family is put first, and you can afford to do it )....You can't put a price tag on something that you designed or made with your own 2 hands, and you have a tremendous amount of pride in yourself for going the extra mile, and doing your own thing ... If this is the kind of thing you enjoy doing, and you're not hurting anyone doing it ....GO FOR IT !!!
You never hear anybody on their death bed saying " I wish I had worked harder and put in more hours at work " and you will never hear them say " gosh, I really shouldn't have bought all those pedal steel guitar's " ... JUST DO IT !!......Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 11 Jan 2005 6:30 pm

Farris,
You have no idea how much passion I can feel in your note .... I don't even know you , and I can just visualize you running all those machines making pedal steel parts.....It's in your blood !!.... ..Jim

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 11 Jan 2005 8:50 pm

Well, it looks like we have enough James' to go around. Thanks for the encouraging words James. I have a cousin who has been in the custom cabinet business for about 20 years. He called me on my way home from work today and wanted me to stop by. When I got there, he had a truckload of fresh, quarter-sawn maple. The only bad thing is that now I have to wait for it dry and "cure". I think he's more excited about helping to build the body than I am. I asked why he went overboard with the lumber and he said that he knew when I finished the first one, the second (and third, etc) would soon follow.

Back to the thread.... I'm pondering the possibilities of "riggin up" some equipment in the shop to make some of the prototype pieces for the changer pieces, bellcranks, etc. I just wish I had a clue about what I was doing!
Any suggestions about doing it "poor country boy style" as Farris said?

Oh well, if I make it through this little project without losing any fingers or toes, I'll be happy. And maybe I'll end up with something that resembles a steel.

James[This message was edited by James M Banks on 11 January 2005 at 08:52 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 12 Jan 2005 8:23 am

I just wish I had a clue about what I was doing!

If I had waited for the clue, I never would have started. I've built a lot of things (camera cranes and such) using truss structures and recently I was looking up at a construction crane , with my brother. I basically said that the guy who designed that had an engineering degree, if it works for him, it will work for me. I don't need to re-invent the wheel, so by the same token, don't be afraid to "borrow" a good idea.

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 12 Jan 2005 9:51 am

Chas, it's funny you say that. I do have an engineering degree (Electrical Engineering from the University of Alabama). Unfortunately, I wasn't really smart enough to understand all that stuff, they just got tired of seeing me in the same classes term after term, so I guess they felt sorry for me and gave me the diploma. Hey, it only took me 6 1/2 years to get a 4 year degree. Like an old friend of mine (an Engineer) told me, "You don't have to be smart, just be stubborn enough not to quit". Anyway, all that fancy book learnin' gets in the way of ingenuity and the whole creative process.... well, redneck ingenuity anyway.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 12 Jan 2005 11:37 am

Guess i'll just say to: James and James.Yes James i was speaking from the bottom of my heart!wishing i could help this poor fellow!my heart goes out to Jame #1,if we could just hand out all the experiance we have had,wouldn't it be great!pass it on.ok,got so much things in my mind,and can't even begin to tell.Most engineers i have dealt with are book knowledge,no common sence at all.i started manufacturing parts,and had so many that could throw the print at me.and thats all they knew! one guy bought a orange tree hedgeing machine out of Ca.had it shipped here,and didn't have a clue how to mount it on his tractor!well,he heard about me,and here he came all on a trailer.i unloaded it,and started looking at all this stuff.started to work,common sense tells me it got to go on front of tractor!so gotta build a frame for tractor.i build a frame,adapter plates,ect.mounted all that stuff,made it lay over go in and out ect.got it all working,not knowing he was going out to peoples groves use it,then sell them one!!huh,
well,here they came one at a time.all different types of tractors,no two the same,and this engineer wants me to make a adaptor to fit all!!haha,could not get it thru his head,one machine will not fit another tractor,without custom building.will give the guy credit,he could sell them,and didn't have a clue,just oh yea we can put it on your tractor.he would get the 10,thousand deposit,and the rest was up to me.i built 10 of those machines doubles,2heads one on each side,ect.never worked as hard in my life and long hrs.what am i saying? use your common knowledge.this engineer told me he hated me,because i could build something just studing it out,and he couldn't do a thing!did i learn a lots?yes,i didn't know a thing about Hydralics when i started,by the time i was thru,hell i could tell you all about acumalators,ect.i only have a 12 grade edc.many things i wish i had learned.i built lots of fuel tanks ect.people want them to hold so many gal.ect.i had to learn to figure cubic in. ect.and still can't tell you how to figure a round tank!as the old saying goes pie R square!!funny yes!never had know eletronic eye torch ect.i cut everything free handed.people asked,how can you cut so clean,well if you have to grind all that stuff,you will learn to cut clean!1inch plate that looks like a saw blade is hell of lots of grinding!!setting here laughing,i've bout lost it!!i better stop,you guys be careful. farris

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 12 Jan 2005 12:06 pm

Farris, your right about engineers. My dad quit school in the 9th grade, became a pipefitter, and after 40+ years of experience, he had the engineers coming to him to ask questions. Daddy always told me to listen to the guys that work on the stuff everyday, because their experience aint in no book. That's what I love about this forum. Though I don't post often, I read, and read, and read some more, trying to learn all I can from those who have already been there.

....Speaking of making parts, are you interested in fabricating a few of the parts that I'll be needing?

James

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 15 Jan 2005 1:33 pm

James,not trying to ignore you,just been off the computer more lately.kinda got to adicted to this thing.and starting to get serious headachs from staring at the screen.

# one i just don't have the fight i use to have in me no more!!

# two, i'm afraid to take on anything serious because of my health.

i would be glad to take a look at anything you are wanting. lots of that stuff take some serious machining.and i'm not up to it no more... tell me what you have and i will certainly respond to you.. farris

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 19 Jan 2005 7:36 am

Funny,we have it in our bones i guess,now here i am,back cranking on bridgeport mill again. farris

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 19 Jan 2005 8:20 am

First of all, CNC machines are not used for prototypes (generally). They are long part run machines. Program the part and run several hundred, or several thousand parts. Then shut her down and move on to the next part.

Well I hate to disagree with you but CNC machines make great prototype machines. I have a Haas VF3 that I do the majority of my prototyping on as well as production. I can program a part have it set up and run before I can get the part half way done conventionally for most everything.
[This message was edited by Jim West on 19 January 2005 at 08:22 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 19 Jan 2005 9:17 am

At the International Machine Tool Show (IMTS) in Chicago this past September I learned that Bridgeport is no longer making Mills. Hardinge has bought the rights to the Bridgeport knee mill. Also, NON-CNC mills are very few. All of the new stuff Hardinge is making in the Bridgeport line will ship with CNC controls, even for prototype shops.
I've got a Series 1 CNC with Boss5 sitting out there that I bought in 1982 and it's obsolete. The stepper motor leadscrew drives have no closed loop feedback, and They don't make 'em like that anymore.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 19 Jan 2005 9:26 am

Thanks Jim and Ray,yep seems this C&C is going just like everything,keeps changing all the time.we were in MIAMI FL.few yrs. ago,blew my mind.man programed a mill,put it in and wrote my name in a plate of alum.,he said lets see you do that with your hand mach.mill. and laths that will turn a trailer ball ect.conture shapes ect.my mind just can't grasp it.not for the little guy like me. farris

David Parker · Post by **David Parker** » 19 Jan 2005 10:09 am

Ferris send me a black and white small photo of you face in a *.bmp format and I can contour engrave in any material and do not even have to program it.I have had this high tech equipment for over ten years and it is still amazing to me to run it because I started machining parts forty five years ago and have seen a lot of changes. Dave

James M Banks · Post by **James M Banks** » 19 Jan 2005 11:53 am

Oh how I wish I could afford some of these wonderful machines. I get excited over handtools at Sears, much less CNC equip. Like I stated earlier, I have some of the parts to start making a homemade 2 axis computer controlled mill, just haven't gotten around to trying to put it together.

Farris, thanks for the email. Your help is appreciated. Do you have any CAD software? I am hoping to finish up some prototype parts on the computer this week. I can send you the files to look at. Maybe you can make suggestions on changes/improvements.

Thanks

James