The Steel Guitar Forum

I've been working on a bunch of gypsy swing tunes, which have 7ths all over them.

How do I play a 7th chord?

Do I do a behind the bar pull on the A string to make that a 7th?

What do you do for a 7th chord? (Just playing the major sounds dull... and I am alone playing these, if I were in a band, I probably would just play the major...)

Here's two ways. Let's say you are playing a 6 string C6 tuning. Low to High CEGACE, Three frets up from that C6 open chord is Eb G Bb C Eb G.... If you grab just that G Bb C on the 5, 4, and 3rd strings, there's a b7 sound or what is called a Dominant chord.

Ok how about on the fifth fret, the full chord is an F6. Back down two frets on the top three strings and you have C Eb G. Thats a fifth and a b7th and a 9th of that F chord.

I hope thats not confusing and helpful....

Happy New Year to Us All!

You don't specify which 6th tuning.

A player rarely is required to play the full chord so in general look for the root and dom 7 notes (and others) 2 frets down from your "home" position, 3 frets up and a nice pattern between the IV & V chord frets.

h

Terribly novice player myself but In c6 I know I can slant it across from the root on the 6th(low) string 2 or 3 frets up on the 3rd string. It sounds right with 3 notes on 6/5/3 with a vibrato. There's a bunch of other inversions too..been working with the roadmaps book. Shows a lot of this stuff

Here's a bunch of V7 to I cadences in first position for A6. Any of these that doesn't use the first string will be fine for C6 with an E on top.

Those slants and split-bar voicings are wonderful! and need some fudging and /or vibrato to tune properly.

But I do use behind-the-bar string pulls to make 2 7th chords on an A6 (same as C6 w/high G) tuning.

Let's use the open strings on a 6 string A 6 as an example:

C# E F# A C# E

pull the F# to G behind the bar and the A6 becomes an A7.

pull the A to A# (Bb) behind the bar and the A6 becomes an F#7.

I'm still working on simultaneously pulling both the F# and A up a half step to make the diminished 7th chord G Bb Db Fb (G A# C# E). I'm still not 100% accurate.

Nice string pulls, David. More difficult on the heavier strings of an 8 string reso which is what Adam would need if he joins a gypsy group or jam. That said, I saw Stacy Phillips playing a month ago and he is the master of string pulls on six string reso. Pretty impressive!

David M Brown wrote:Those slants and split-bar voicings are wonderful! and need some fudging and /or vibrato to tune properly.

Yes and no. It depends on the geometry. Examples 2, 3, 8, 9 and twelve don't require fudging or vibrato, just the correct slant. The rest do.

Lots of good stuff!

I'm playing a 6 string G6 (GBDEGB).

I'm not playing out with anyone, so thats not an issue at this point. (I am however having a heck of a time deciding if I want an 8 string electric or reso, but thats another discussion)

Seems like there's more than one way to skin a cat! I'm working on Avalon this week, which has a lot of nice bouncing between the chords and is chock-a-block full of 7ths...

The only notes that matter in a 7th chord are the 3rd and b7th. This is for a straight 7th chord. So, the best plan of action is to identify every 3rd and b7th of your chord on the neck and connect them. In a straight tuning like yours, you need to slant. For instance, for C7, locate all Bbs and Es. This is not only the 3rd and b7th of C, but also of F#.

I have a lot more on this, but I don't have the time right now.

OK, to follow up a little. If you isolate the 3rds and 7ths, you can easily connect them with neighboring strings to give you the harmonies you need. You are NOT looking to play full chords--it isn't going to happen. But if you understand the relationship of the dominant chord in the progression, you can add colors to the guide tones (3rd and 7th).

We can move around and create voice leading the way a pianist does. But it is important to learn which extensions we can use and their alterations (b9, #9, #11 etc.) Also, we don't want to lead the soloist too much, so less is more.

Mike Neer wrote:The only notes that matter in a 7th chord are the 3rd and b7th. This is for a straight 7th chord. So, the best plan of action is to identify every 3rd and b7th of your chord on the neck and connect them. In a straight tuning like yours, you need to slant. For instance, for C7, locate all Bbs and Es. This is not only the 3rd and b7th of C, but also of F#.
.

One other fast option is to use the triad A C# E on the top strings and go up 3 frets and hit the G and Bb as a straight bar, OR hit the first string Bb and the 3rd string E with a reverse slant.

"identify every 3rd and b7th of your chord on the neck" - words of wisdom

The thing that makes the "7th chord sound" is the tritone - two notes that are 6 half-steps apart. In C7, for example, those notes are E and Bb. These are the 3rd and b7th notes that Mike Neer wrote about (above). In the key of C, the I7, IV7 and V7 chords are:
<pre>
C7 - C E G Bb
F7 - F A C Eb
G7 - G B D F
</pre>There are no tritones in the open C6th tuning, so you have to slant the bar. The easiest tritone bar slants are forward slants that skip a string, on two strings that are a 4th apart. The E(5) and A(3) strings are the most obvious. The other pair is G(4) and C(2). Here I have tabbed the easiest tritones, key of C, for C6th tuning:
[tab]chord F7 C7 G7 F7 C7 G7 F7 C7 G7 F7 C7 G7
E _________________________________________________________________
C _____3____4____5_____________________9____10___11________________
A _____/____/____/_____6____7____8_____/____/____/_____12___13___14
G _____2____3____4_____/____/____/_____8____9____10____/____/____/_
E _____________________5____6____7_____________________11___12___13
C _________________________________________________________________
notes Eb E F Eb E F A Bb B A Bb B
A Bb B A Bb B Eb E F Eb E F [/tab]

Adam, your G6th has the same intervals as the C6th I tabbed above. Instead of F7, C7 and G7, you would get C7, G7 and D7.
[tab]chord C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7
B _________________________________________________________________
G _____3____4____5_____________________9____10___11________________
E _____/____/____/_____6____7____8_____/____/____/_____12___13___14
D _____2____3____4_____/____/____/_____8____9____10____/____/____/_
B _____________________5____6____7_____________________11___12___13
G _________________________________________________________________
notes Bb B C Bb B C E F F# E F F#
E F F# E F F# Bb B C Bb B C [/tab]

b0b wrote:Adam, your G6th has the same intervals as the C6th I tabbed above. Instead of F7, C7 and G7, you would get C7, G7 and D7.

In addition, C7, G7 and D7 is also the same as Gb7, Db7 and Ab7. Tritone substitution makes it possible that 3rds and b7s are interchangeable in keys a tritone apart (e.g. C and F#, D and Ab, F and B).

Yeah, but who plays in Db?

Db is an amazing key for C6 steel guitar (Steelin' the Blues). also tend to write in weird keys like Gb, Db because it's how I hear them. Sometimes transposing to the nearest playable key robs the music of something--at least in my ears.

But anyway, to expand on the point, if you are playing the blues in C, you can play the tritone dyads in C or F#--they are the same notes reversed. Two notes is all you need and they all within a 3 fret span on the same strings.

b0b wrote:Yeah, but who plays in Db?

Mike Neer wrote:Db is an amazing key for C6 steel guitar (Steelin' the Blues). also tend to write in weird keys like Gb, Db because it's how I hear them. Sometimes transposing to the nearest playable key robs the music of something--at least in my ears.

Me too, Mike.

I grew up in New Orleans playing with horn players and often like the tune in those flat keys, so I do play in F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and once in a while Db. It sounds "right"

Also, if you have one of those "fancy" arrangements that begins in C and modulates to Db and then ends in D, for a while you need to play in Db.

While not wishing to pile on 'beloved leader', I do feel compelled to say that gypsy jazzers are going to call 'Stomping at the Savoy' in Db. For myself, I'd rather it in Eb.

It was a joke, guys. It fell flat. I guess I need to work on my delivery.

b0b wrote:It was a joke, guys. It fell flat. I guess I need to work on my delivery.

I know it was, b0b. Better to be sharp than fall flat! But truthfully, the worst key to play in is the key of your tuning (unless playing dobro). I would rather play in Db any day than C.

Mike Neer wrote:But truthfully, the worst key to play in is the key of your tuning...

This is something that most players I think figure out fairly quickly, but I rarely see it mentioned explicitly. It likely seems counterintuitive to most beginners.

Rather than pulling strings with your fingers, it would make more sense to play a very basic copedent pedal steel?

Dennis Detweiler wrote:Rather than pulling strings with your fingers, it would make more sense to play a very basic copedent pedal steel?

Out of the question!

Mike Neer wrote:

Dennis Detweiler wrote:Rather than pulling strings with your fingers, it would make more sense to play a very basic copedent pedal steel?

Out of the question!

This

Guy Cundell wrote:While not wishing to pile on 'beloved leader', I do feel compelled to say that gypsy jazzers are going to call 'Stomping at the Savoy' in Db. For myself, I'd rather it in Eb.

And many swing dance bands played it in F, too.

"Body and Soul" is most common in Db.

However a lot of Gypsy jazz cats will call tunes in guitar keys - Ain't Misbehavin' in C rather than in Eb, etc.