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Topic: What is the best Amp and or Mic to record your steel? |
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 8:07 pm |
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| I have been using my Nashville 400 and a condenser mic but am looking for a change. Any suggestions for a clean sound. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 8:12 pm
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When we recorded JayDee on his solo CD, we used a Shure 57. That was his preference, as well as mine.
Some cuts we used a Session 400 Limited, and some were through a Stereo Steel. |
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Jason Duguay
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 9:10 pm
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Follow your ears. Think of the microphone as a instrument, you have to play it. Think to yourself, what is it that I want to improve upon, what have I tried? See what doesnt work and take notes. The room is a very, very, important factor. Is your amp on wood, carpet? Is it in the corner? Personally, as a professional I stay away from 48v, its all about what your ears want to hear. A 57 is a very powerful microphone if its loaded correctly, Skip sounds like he knows what he's talking about. If your budget is limited, and this is for fun, I would recommend keeping the electronics simple.
That was long winded, in the end performance is everything.
_________________
Ralph. Mooney. |
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Mark Wayne
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2016 10:16 pm
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Greg,
In my opinion, SM57's seem to have a thick, warm tone on many amps, however, if you have the capability to record with 2 mic's, you can take a large studio condenser mic and place it about 5 feet out in front of the amp to pick up the amps' tone along with early reflections.
I've been fortunate enough to own a Neumann U87 microphone for the latter, but when I send my session work of the 2 tracks to other producers, some of them are asking for just the U87 take!
It is amazing though - how a $100 SM57 can be chosen over expensive mics in some cases.
LIke Jason said....ACOUSTICS.. It took me years to realize that speaker tone IS NOT the only sound that is entering the microphone.
SM57 is a good place to start, though.
_________________
Mark Wayne Krutke
****markwayne.biz**** |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 7:27 am
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I still think line out options on some amps, especially the Peavey LTD and the Quilter Steelaire, produce the best sound recorded. I know you die hard mike guys probably don't agree but just to help, If I were to use a mike, it would be a SM57 or even an SM58.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 8:30 am
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| In a smaller studio The Shure SM57 is my choice. I picks up the amp without picking up all the small room reflections and extraneous noise. Playing fairly loud in the studio is a tremendous help to getting a great signal to noise ratio and overcoming any amp hum or hiss too! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 10:36 am
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Straight to board through a Telonics pedal can sound as good as anything and make life very uncomplicated. The Telonics uses a Neve preamp design so it does all the right things in the studio.
The engineer who had me in on a session preferred this route to amp and mic options ... and said after mixdown and mastering it required very little eq processing for it to sit in the mix properly. This was a Fessenden with E66s.
Adding a speaker and mic adds two eq curves on top of the pure signal... making post processing far more complex because of the interactions.
If you want some extra richness or sweetness, a tube preamp might be part of the chain, but engineers can introduce those effects using amp sims as well.
If we were discussing electric guitar where the amp itself is 80 percent of the tone and dynamics... I would have a much different proposal... but with steel. .. the amp is not as significant... I think most of what we are seeking is to flatten the eq curve and have linear dynamics...
The exception is for old shobud which seems to have pickups voiced specifically to interact with tube amps. |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 3:41 pm
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Thanks guys. I think Ill try the 57. I have a behringer condenser mic now its Ok but I dont think it gives me exactly what Im hearing.
Another method I use is Steel directly into a Presonus Studio Channel with parametrics , limiter , tube , then to a Zoom R8 recorder. This works really nice and has a different cut than a mic recording has. |
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Zoran Kosir
From:
Slovenia
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 3:55 pm
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JayDee had a very low-tech way of "eq-ing" his amp, gained from his years of experience in the studio.
If it didn't sound right, we'd just move/angle the mic a bit. Changed the sound enough to make a difference.
Plus, we didn't place the mic dead center to the speaker, but rather about halfway up the cone. Sounds a bit warmer than when it's placed directly over the metal center of the speaker. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 5:25 pm
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While a Sony C37A is my absolute favorite, the Sennheiser 421 is my go to most times, though these days I am loving the DI out of the Telonics amplifier, as well as DI from a Sarno V8...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Jerry Kippola
From:
UP Michigan, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 7:18 pm
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| Demeter Tube Direct/ Urei 1176 compressor. If I have to use a mic, a Sennheiser 409/509/906, and the 1176. |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 23 Nov 2016 10:01 pm
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I'm gearing up to do some audio samples of a miked up amp for Royer and Mojave Audio. They asked me to do this so they could have some examples of pedal steel in their respective online media libraries. I will be using several ribbon models from Royer, as well as some large and small diagraghm condensers from Mojave. I plan to use direct-recorded files and run them through my reamp setup to record the various mikes in different positions. This method will remove the "performance variables", which should allow for some accurate comparisons. If time allows I also plan to use a few staple microphones for comparison (Neumann, AKG, Sennheiser, Shure, etc).
The Dynamount company has graciously offered to participate by sending their flagship X1-R remote microphone positioner so I don't have to burn any more calories than necessary running back and forth between the control room and the amp room.  Seriously, this is a cool tool that, among other things, allows for precision repeatability in positioning.
www.dynamount.com
Should be a fun project. If anybody is interested I will give a heads up and post some when everything is done, probably in a couple or three weeks.
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Source Audio, Goodrich Sound, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Tony Rankin
From:
Land O’ Lakes, FL
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Posted 24 Nov 2016 1:55 pm
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Tommy,
I am definitely interested!
_________________
Tony Rankin |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 24 Nov 2016 2:29 pm
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You got it Tony! Hardest part of this whole thing will be coming up with something decent to play that I can stand to hear over and over.....and over....and over.... 
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Source Audio, Goodrich Sound, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Nov 2016 10:16 pm
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Tommy, see if you can get your hands on a Neumann fet 47. It won the steel mic shoot out at Sear Sound and a couple other big NYC studios I used to track at. There was plenty of time to screw around with that stuff on those week long lock out sessions.
I have a Lawson fet 47 that is pretty amazing.
Although currently I am way into a Royer 121 for micing the steel.
I would be very interested in how a small diaphragm Mojave mic would sound. Looking forward to the results of your samples.
_________________
Bob |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 25 Nov 2016 6:57 am
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| I spent a lifetime making a living recording steel players and there are various ways to record all producing a different sound. I personally prefer the cleanest pedal steel sound I can get and that is by pulling a signal directly off the volume pedal into a direct box either active or passive into a really clean mic preamp like the new Yamaha DM2000 mic pres. You can pay more but those work and don't cost an arm and a leg. Now when you go to mix you have the hottest noise free signal you can get and if you want to dirty it up a bit you can use processing or you can do a process engineers have been doing for years and it is called reamping. I have done it many times. After the player has left the studio or you can let them listen too just play the track back through any amp out in the studio and mic it with your choice of mic and amp and record that on to another track. This way you always have that original hot clean performance to experiment with mics and different amps. When you find the combination you like use that track for the final mix. If you record a dirty noisey amp track to start with it reduces your options considerably. It's called "Re-amping" a clean track. Another option is to take a signal off the pedal and amp it too on another track if the final tone is not that critical. That leaves you two options instead of one plus you can always re-amp the clean track. I've spent more on expensive mics and preamps then most people spend on new cars and trucks and I would never put my sound in a box with a single microphone setup. As for as mics a good dynamic mic like a SM57, Sennheiser MD421, 441, Electro Voice RE-20 or Shure SM7 is hard to beat for guitar amp amplification. Condensers are just overkill that pick up too much room noise unless you have really good isolation booths. Try re-amping different amps like Fender, Mesa Boogie, Peavy, Milkman, etc. and put them on different tracks and see what works best with the track. |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2016 9:10 am
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| Tommy Detamore wrote: |
| You got it Tony! Hardest part of this whole thing will be coming up with something decent to play that I can stand to hear over and over.....and over....and over.... |
A nice ballad 
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 25 Nov 2016 9:26 am
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| I might add that people new to recording almost always get a poor sound despite the amount and price of their equipment. This is largely due to a lack of understanding how gain works. In a nutshell you have to get the gain up fast as soon as it hits the trim on the preamp then keep reducing the gain as necessary till it hits unity gain on the recorder. If you start out with a signal that is too weak and start adding gain as the signal chain moves along you will introduce noise and loose huge amounts of ttone. Get the gain up fast starting with the instrument itself. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2016 7:30 am
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I love when guys like Tommy Detamore and David Mitchell give us insight to “HOW†it’s done... and these two fella’s certainly do... I know a little less about Tommy than David, but everything I’ve heard and learned about Tommy has always impressed me, and he’s a pretty classy guy too...
David also is among the best when it comes to recording and knowing how to get the most out of it... He’s helped me think about things I would never have thought to otherwise and has always given me the greatest advice... I’m honored that a guy who’s recorded some of the best, (Ray Price, Junior Knight, Tom Morrel) considers me a friend and has shared so much with me... Here’s a little sampler of a recording session he engineered/produced and played on for Chuck Cusimano with Junior on steel... this won and award for album of the year in Texas... the thing that struck me most was the placement of the instruments... It’s like you could see where each of them was sitting on the stage... awesome...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGBNel3mb44
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 26 Nov 2016 9:16 am
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Thank you Dale! What a compliment coming from one of the worlds smoothest steel players. Always a pleasure to listen to your work. Yes Tommy Detamore is a genius when it comes to recording. I've heard much of his great work. Tommy even had to fix one of my blunders one night and I mean overnight. Ray usually did a lot of recording in Tyler for other people because it was pretty close to Mt. Pleasant where he lived. So one night he comes over to put a vocal on a singers track Tommy had prerecorded. I actually got out of bed half asleep at 10:00pm to go record Ray which was totally unannounced till I got the phone call. So Ray and I were sitting in the control room listening to track and I look at Ray and say that lady sure has an unusual voice. It sounds like she took a hit of helium before she recorded. Ray says "It sure does but oh well, let's do it." It never occurred to me I had been recording at 48k samples a second instead of the more common cd quality of 44.100 which her voice was recorded at. I always recorded slightly higher to give yhe multitrack master the edge over cd quality. I tried 96k but it ate up to much hard drive and personally I could not tell much difference in quality.
So Ray sings his part as a duo recording and I email it back to Tommy.
I go back to bed and in the wee hours of the morning Tommy calls and ask me what sample rate I recorded Ray's voice at. There was a silence and simultaneously we both said Ah #%$!!
I told Tommy had Ray had just left for Canada but maybe he could drive back and rerecord it. Tommy said "I know Ray. He's not coming back." I call Ray anyway and explain what had happened and Ray says "What's wrong with it? It sounded fine to me. Send it to them." Yep, Tommy was right. So here is the problem and why Tommy is a genius. The lady (Gail? maybe Tommy can help me remember her name) needed the song for her album that night so it would make it to the press in time for Christmas. Bobby Flores was producing and he was not a happy camper. He was nearly in tears. Tommy tells me on the phone "Let me think for a minute." A few seconds go by and he says "I think I have a solution." Somehow and I believe he had to record a new part under Rays voice he made the song modulate to another key when Ray started singing. Now I have did this before but Tommy pulled it off so slick it sounded like the song was written that way. The key change seemed to give it new life. I can only imagine what Tommy was saying when he thought he was nearly through and found out he wasn't. I think the album was entitled "Home For Christmas" Very beautiful record with lucious strings and all.
I don't really feel bad about it though even though I wish I had checked the sample rate because I don't think they would have had Ray's voice on it at all if I hadn't climbed out of bed. Free of charge at that. Here is one of Dale Rottackers recordings at his YouTube page steelinatune. He does these at home by himself. Great steel guitar sound I think! https://youtu.be/OUCDuHeN17o |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 27 Nov 2016 4:46 am
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in addition, the 57 is probably the best overall dynamic mic that a musician can own for ANY purpose 
I have heard that some people have even used them to jack up a car to change a tire and also they have been used as hammers in construction... 
All seriousness aside, for $100 every musician should have one of these in their gig bag or in their home studio, at least one.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Tommy Detamore
From:
Floresville, Texas
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Posted 27 Nov 2016 5:48 am
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Thanks Dale and David! Man Junior sounds great on that Chuck C. stuff! Good job by all there...
Yeah David that was a bit of a "sticky wicket" but stuff like that happens. I have a few tales of my own!
For the record, the artist's name is Stephanie Davis. And I don't recall changing the key of the song. I think I actually pirch shifted Ray's voice to match the existing tracks and key. At the time I had Digital Perforner on my second computer, and it had a pitch altering function in it that was very similar to Melodyne. Pretty sure that's what I did but that was light years ago it seems....
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Source Audio, Goodrich Sound, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer
www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 27 Nov 2016 11:42 pm
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| Thanks Tommy Detamore! Whatever you did you saved it and me! Yes Chuck Cusimano is another great traditional writer/singer. I just wish that kind of music still sold to the masses. I did become friends and talked with Stephanie on Facebook. She apologized and thanked us for our scary time limiting experience on that record. Very attractive lady and great singer (when it's running the right speed). I miss Ray. He use to come over and go to sleep in the control room. When we would wake him up he would say "I'm listening". Never be another Ray. |
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