Understanding Paul Franklin's C6 copedant

Steve Knight · From: NC

Hello,

Could someone please give me some insight into why/how Paul Franklin chose the C6 setup listed on the forum's tuning page? When I look at Buddy E's setup, I can picture using the LKL & LKR & other changes to get altered jazz chord voicings. On the Franklin setup, I have trouble seeing obvious chord voicings.

In particular, I wouldn't know how to use pedal 4. Pedal 5 & his LKL look interesting, though. I really like the FAC to ACD on pedal 5. Cool.

Is the copedant geared toward single-note runs more than chord voicings? I'm just trying to determine the logic behind the copedant. It sounds great when he's playing it. I'm just trying to understand it.

Thank you,

SK

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Steve, I tried to figure it out too; even worked kind of hard at it.

I also tried a C6th setup that was pretty close to what's shown on the forum's tunings page, but without the P4 setup. And BTW the P5 was something I liked a lot and hated to let go of; some folks have gone to a tuning with that lower D on the 7th string and sacrificied the low C on 10.

In the meantime some of the work I put in on trying to understand the P4 was posted in this link many moons ago:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/000400.html

Please feel free to check it out; however I don't know whether it's of any use because I don't know what his underlying ideas are for that pedal.

I've noticed that it's something that appears to have evolved over some period of time based on what I've seen of one of his earlier setups.

In any case his setup wasn't a good fit for me, and I've changed to something close to BE's C6th arrangement - it fits my way of thinking C6th much better, but I still am blown away by what Paul does with his - his skill and musical mind far overshadow what I sit down with.

I hope this helps a little.

Bob

Steve Knight · From: NC

Thank you, Bob. You sure did spend a lot of time analyzing the C6 copedant. Thank you for posting the link.

Anyone else?

SK

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

This is the kind of thing that really makes me wish I had a family member, best friend, main squeeze etc. who built pedal steel guitars for a living. I can sit down and chart these things up all day, but the proof is in the pudding - can you really know what's going on until you get your hands on one? I wish there was some kind of... museum, or showroom or something, with thirty different steels lined up in different tunings, so you could try these things out. Of course they'd have 300 customers who'd each stay a few days then they'd be out of customers, oh well.

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

Best way to figure Paul's P4 is to get him to explain it. Incidentally, if I remember correctly, that pedal also lowers three strings on E9 for a total of 9 pulls. Someone once said the Franklin pedal ease defies the laws of physics. I would think one would have to stand to push the pedal all the way down on anything else.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

The purpose of the 4th pedal is to alter the basic tuning of the instrument to one where there is a low D on the C neck. Look at Buddy's 12 string C copedent for an example of this without pedals. I used to have this change, but I found myself always depressing the pedal. So I (and a bunch of other players including Terry Crisp and Bob Hoffnar) changed the tuning to drop the low C note and add the D to my basic C6th tuning.

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www.tyack.com

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

David, I feel your pain. I think most of us have, at one time or another. I also think that a lot of steelers out there believe that some special setup or pedal will give them some super advantage over what they already have. (I know I once did.) Alas, such is not the case. Everything is a trade-off, and most find that even after they've adopted that "special pedal" or setup, it does very little to improve their own playing.

I'm a staunch believer in just learning to play, rather than trying to learn how to sound like so-and-so by adopting his setup. In my experience, it just doesn't work that way. Buddy, Lloyd, Hal, Paul, Tommy, etc., all have different setups, and they all play quite well. But I feel their differences in sound are due more to what goes on in their mind, and how they approach the music, rather than being based merely on what changes they have in their particular setup.

Put quite simply, if you understand Buddy's setup, but you don't understand Paul's...then you should just use Buddy's! Better to just use something you can easily comprehend than to try and second-guess why you shouldn't!

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

as usual Donny, you always hittin' the nail right on the head

Steve Knight · From: NC

Donny,

I couldn't agree more with your advice. I have no intention of modifying my copedant to match Paul's because I wouldn't understand how to use it :-)

I am leaning towards adding LKL & LKR on the C6 with Buddy E's changes to help me get through some of the jazz standards in the Real Book(s.) Not to copy Buddy, but because I keep looking for more #5 & b7 voicings on my neck. I know where they are on my Tele.

I am curious as to what Paul's thought process was to the development of his C6 copedant, especially pedal 4. I'm sure he gave it plenty of thought before he settled on it.

SK

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

The thought on Paul's pedal 4 (which Buddy had on at least a few copedents) is to create a copedent in which one can do extended scalar soloing (single string) with minimal bar movement. Similar in a way to the E9th.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Pedal 4 that Dans speaks of is now Pauls pedal 5.He moved the D in the middle pedal from 4 to pedal 5 around 1998.Heres a link to his C6th set-up. http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

One possibility of why a player might have mulitple pulls to the same note is so that they can be tuned slightly differently for chordal intonation purposes. Whatever Paul is doing on the C neck, its way beyond me !

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Bob
intonation help

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I susect he is looking at smaller voicings,
but more moving tones,
than is normal thought of on C6

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

This is exactly the reason that I personally hope that the pedal steel will never become completely standardized. I like the never ending quest aspect of our instrument.

We use to be the mad scientists of the music world you know!

In my case there came a point that I really got tired of not being able to play the same exact chords that I play when I sit down at a guitar or piano. I got tired of implying chords and having to come up with partial versions of basic changes that I wanted to do "my thing" with. I racked my brain at first, but eventually I started to come up with some of my own different pulls that would work for what I was hearing in my head. It's a given that my copedent would not work for somebody who is hearing things differently and vice versa. That's the unique beauty of the PSG! Of course you can do as Lloyd says and "find something that works and stick with it" This is also a very valid idea! There's a lifetime of knowlege to learn on any tuning setup...Or you can keep searching to find your own muse, which IMHO is a large part of our heritage as steelers.

Like David said, Paul just needed to play what he was hearing in his head and came up with his own way to do it.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 27 November 2004 at 10:04 AM.]

Steve Knight · From: NC

Bump in case PF is surfing the forum and wants to reply

SK

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes this is very interesting in that; I had an experience this last year, that may shed some light into trying to explain how someone looks at their steel and set up.
I was fortunate to get to play one of Big Jim Murphy's Sho~buds the better part of this last year; as I did a set up on most of his steels and a restoration on one. When I first saw his C6th set up(7 peds; 5 knees) and the only location and pulls that were close to normal..ha..was the 5th and 6th pedals as we know them. The rest were located and pulled strings or not pulled strings like I've never seen before. Big Jim told me this is something he developed through all the years of playing and growing up playing Sax. WEll after playing his guitar for a while; I begin to realize the genious of how and why it was set up like that. Everyone of us look at the instrument differently and seeing the possibilities and tones avaliable are truly personal to our ability;knowledge and what we hear or don't hear or want to hear. To totally understand another players reasoning; we would have to climb into their head and heart and look through their eyes, which of course is impossible. But to me the next best thing to that; is simply implying those changes on your guitar as how they are mapped out and live with it a while and then and only then; you will start to realize a small chapter in their book.
Paul; is truly a genious and a Master of the pedal steel. If someone wants a glimps into his thought process; you would have to map your guitar out like his and live with it a while, and then you might get to know the man a little more.
Ricky

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I took jazz improv/theory from an amazing Seattle legend named Gerome Gray for a couple of years. We spent a lot of time on 'post-bebop' voicings. More than once while figuring out how to play some voicing or another I would say, "so that's why Paul put that change on there.." ( I had put Paul's C6th copedent on my Franklins since my first one in '80, because I didn't know the neck and I loved the way he played).

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