Sho~Bud 6139 and 6140 Question

admin · Post by **b0b** » 22 Oct 2016 12:54 pm

My first real pedal steel was a Sho~Bud 6139 (S-10 3+1). The 6140 was, as I understand it, the same guitar configured <strike>5+1</strike> 6+0 for C6th players. Knee lever kits were available - I bought two of them and installed them myself. It was a pretty good instrument for the time (1974). A lot of them are still in use today.

My question: where did these unusual model names come from? What significance did the numbers "6139" and "6140" have to Shot Jackson and/or others in the Sho~Bud company?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 22 Oct 2016 3:21 pm

That's a good question b0b. Ricky might know. I had a '67 that had 6 pedals in the middle, and two left knees. I don't know what model that was.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Oct 2016 5:48 pm

b0b.. A 6140 with 5 and 1, was either ordered like that, or modified.. The original 6140 was a 6 pedal no knee lever guitar.. I had one and added 3 knee levers. It was an amazing sounding guitar..they may have made some with 5 and one I guess, but most I have seen over the years were 6 on the floor only .. Ricky would know more about it than I would . Most have had levers added by this time, but every once in a blue moon, you'll still find one with no knees and 6 pedals on ebay,.. bob

admin · Post by **b0b** » 22 Oct 2016 6:35 pm

I stand corrected on that. I wasn't sure.

But why was it called "6140"?

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 22 Oct 2016 6:42 pm

My first steel was a blonde rack-and-barrel 6140 bought new from Manny's in NYC in early 1974. It came with 2 knees. I knew almost nothing about steels at the time and I didn't even know it had two knees until I got it home. I think I only paid for one. The steel was set up for E9. Maybe they put a knee or two on the E9 6140s but not on the C6 ones.

No idea where the 6xxx numbers came from.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 22 Oct 2016 7:02 pm

Bruce,
Mine was 6 and 2, and set up for E9th when I got it. Found it in a second hand store for next to nothing. I had bought my Kline the day before, but couldn't pass up the old Bud! I just put it in a closet. Traded it to James{RIP my friend!} and he converted it to 3 and 5.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 23 Oct 2016 5:42 am

I really don't know the answer to b0b's original question. I never had a chance to ask Shot. If someone can ask Harry Jackson(David would probably make something up..ha.); he may remember where the numbers 6139 and 6140 came from and there meaning. Also AJ Nelson is still alive; so he may even know; as he did the body/finish on most shobuds.
Ricky

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 23 Oct 2016 6:04 am

My 6139 is 3x5.

So 4 of the levers were definitely added at a later date?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Oct 2016 6:17 am

Almost certainly. 6139 by definition was 3 & 1. HOWEVER, I'm not sure that they'd have changed the model number if someone ordered a 6139 with more knees.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 23 Oct 2016 6:35 am

Lane Gray wrote:Almost certainly. 6139 by definition was 3 & 1. HOWEVER, I'm not sure that they'd have changed the model number if someone ordered a 6139 with more knees.

So was it considered a student model? Hard to imagine Sho~Bud in the mid 70's selling a pro model with only 3x1.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Oct 2016 6:39 am

It wasn't a student model. It was an economy pro guitar, with a pro cabinet and undercarriage. I guess along the lines of the MSA Semi Classic.
And the forest of levers wasn't quite standard til a bit later. When I was getting started in about 1980, several makers had standard 3 & 3, with more on request.

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 23 Oct 2016 9:07 am

Lane Gray wrote:It wasn't a student model. It was an economy pro guitar, with a pro cabinet and undercarriage. I guess along the lines of the MSA Semi Classic.
And the forest of levers wasn't quite standard til a bit later. When I was getting started in about 1980, several makers had standard 3 & 3, with more on request.

Lane's absolutely right, it was/is a thoroughly pro model. In fact it wasn't pitched as an economy model; it was only "economy" in that it wasn't a D-10 (many of which were also sold with only 1 or 2 knees at that time). In the late '60s - early '70s knee levers were relatively new and there wasn't really a standard for pulls or locations yet. Lots of players didn't use or want a full set of knees. Look at the different pro copedants in Winnie's book.

The "standard" default KL setups offered by manufacturers were often different, even for the most common pulls like the E lowers. Fender was still selling steels with pedals only, no KLs offered, until the JV with Sho-Bud in the mid-'70s. (Then they got out of the pedal steel biz entirely, in part because, I've heard, there wasn't a clear standard and they didn't want to handle a lot of custom orders.)

I imagine Sho-Bud equipped the 6139 model with one knee that had the pulls they considered the most useful and standardized at the time, figuring anyone wanting more would just order them as options. If they had built and stocked S-10s with 4 or 5 knees they would have had to switch pulls around for lots of them as they sold.

My 6139 has the original 3+1 with racks and barrels, and 3 more knees added later (by the factory I think) with 2-hole pullers. I have seen at least one 6139 with 3+4, all of them apparently original R&B... and it had the serial number right after mine.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 23 Oct 2016 10:17 am

Everyone is talking about all different ShoBuds with different pedal and knee lever set ups. SHO~BUD was truly a CUSTOM shop. Custom means they make it exactly the way the owner wants it; they customize it the color and set up that they want/order. There was NO Standard. Yes they made Sho~bud's to display for sale; therefore they built it with the pedals and knees that whoever the person putting it together decides to put on it(which was pretty much like the last one they custom built for someone..ha).
So as soon as you stop trying to figure out some normal production/process at ShoBud; then you truly find out what SHO~BUD PEDAL STEEL is/was all about.
Ricky

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 23 Oct 2016 10:57 am

Shot might even let you search through the woodpile!

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 24 Oct 2016 9:45 am

I have a '73 or a '74 6140. it has a pedal bar set up for 6 pedals and you can tell 3 were removed at some point.It came with 2 knees on the left and I had Jim P. add 2 more knees later. I'm sure it came with six floor pedals, don't know if it was C6 or E9 tuning originally,dont know if it came with any knee levers from the factory.
My guitar might have been owned by Johnny Cox, as I see the name "J.Cox" etched into the left end plate!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 24 Oct 2016 10:38 am

I think my 6139 cost $700 in 1974. That would be about $3400 in today's dollars. Hardly a "student model"! It was a pretty good guitar. I sold it to Jack Francis when I got my Emmons (maybe 1979?).

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Oct 2016 11:03 am

Perhaps Lloyd Green could answer the question about the model numbers?

William Liemandt · Post by **William Liemandt** » 24 Oct 2016 2:29 pm

In an attempt to answer bOb's original question about the model numbering, I post this ShoBud model number list. I copied this list from Duane Becker's "Field Guide to Sho-Bud Pedal Steel Guitars.

6138 Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals
6139 Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals, 1 knee lever
6140 Single Neck 10 strings 6 pedals, no knee lever
6141 Double Neck 6 pedals, 1 knee lever-maple body
6142 Double Neck 6 pedals, 1 knee lever-rosewood body
6143 Professional Model Double Neck 10 strings 8 pedals, 2 knee levers
6148 Pro-I Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals, 2 knee levers
6150 LDG Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals, 4 knee levers
6152 Maverick Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals, 1 knee lever
6155 Pro-II Double Neck 10 strings 8 pedals, 2 knee levers
6160 Pro-I Single Neck 12 string 3 pedals, 4 knee levers
6164 Pro-III Double Neck 10 strings 8 pedals, 4 knee levers
6165 Pro-II Double Neck 12 strings 8 pedals, 4 knee levers
6166 Super Pro Double Neck 10 strings 8 pedals, 6 knee levers

Were I to take a WAG at this, I'd guess the only significance of number 6140 is that it falls between 6139 and 6141.

As a side note, sharp eyed viewers of the TV show "Home Improvement" would have noted that every tool demonstrated on that show was of the "Binford 6100" series.

Coincidence?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 24 Oct 2016 2:50 pm

I was not aware of that. So, maybe it was sequential from the start* and the 6139 & 6140 models just became very popular. Other models had names on the front so we never referred to them by their model numbers.

*What was the very first Sho-Bud model number? Did it really start with 6138?

Or was it, like Binford, 6100?

William Liemandt · Post by **William Liemandt** » 24 Oct 2016 3:20 pm

bOb, I've no idea of the first model number Sho-Bud, or even of when they started using model numbers. Some expert would have to ring in with that.

Here's a Sho-Bud price list from 1979, and it shows no earlier (lower) numbers prior to 6138. Also, it seems that most of the accessories fall into the 6200 series of model #'s. For instance, the volume pedal I use is a #6250.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 24 Oct 2016 3:47 pm

When did Gretsch start distributing Sho~Bud.

Their guitar models are all 4 digit numbers starting with 6 (many of the famous ones starting with 61 like the 6120).

Is it possible that Sho~Bud adopted this numbering system to fit in with their distributor?

With the exception of the 6138 Bo Diddley model (which didn't come out till 2000 anyway) a cursory glance suggests the Sho~Bud numbers fit round the Gretsch ones.

6118: Anniversary
6119: Chet Atkins Tennessee Rose (Tennessean)
6120: Chet Atkins Hollow Body (Nashville)
6121: Chet Atkins Solid Body
6122: Chet Atkins Country Gentleman (Country Classic)
6128, 6129, 6131: Jets of various sorts
6134: Penguin
6136, 7593: Falcon
6138: Bo Diddley
6143 & 6144: Spectra Sonic
6192, 6193, 6196: Country Club
6199: Billy Bo Jupiter Thunderbird

admin · Post by **b0b** » 24 Oct 2016 5:27 pm

Sounds good, except... Gretsch had already used the numbers 6139 and 6140 for their "Jet" series of steel guitars in 1955:

Source: acousticmusic.wpengine.com/.../Gretsch-1955-Catalog.pdf

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 24 Oct 2016 10:54 pm

b0b wrote:Sounds good, except... Gretsch had already used the numbers 6139 and 6140 for their "Jet" series of steel guitars in 1955:

It was just a thought that popped into my head and I admit I didn't do much research.

However... The 6139 and 6140 were lap steel cases and maybe the lap steels that they were for were discontinued by whenever Sho~Bud adopted the numbering system (or the cases were no longer available as separate items) and the numbers were re-used (in the same way that the Bo Diddley guitar model was re-used in 2000)?

Again, all unsupported conjecture on my part but It seems such a coincidence that 2 closely related companies (one distributing the other's products) would adopt a very similar numbering system for their products and even possibly dovetail the numbers so they didn't step on each others toes (if that is the case - more research needed, of course).

admin · Post by **b0b** » 24 Oct 2016 11:09 pm

I think you're probably right about the Gretsch connection in the numbering, Jeff. The Gretsch non-pedal 6139 and 6140 cases weren't around for very long, and were probably forgotten by the time the Sho~Bud deal came along.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 25 Oct 2016 9:09 pm

Coop told my 1967;