JI tuning in an ET world

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Having pure harmonies sure sound nice but there are some things that we need to be aware of as a steel-player when playing with instruments that don't use JI tuning.

1. If you want an E chord at the 3rd fret w A+F ped/lever it will be located to the right of the 3rd fret to have the E note true.

2. Want to use the 6th string as a root note for a minor chord with E's lowered you will also need to locate the bar to the right of the fret to keep the root note true.

3. Whole tone intervals are not the same between different strings and certain pedal combinations. Make sure you know how they differ from each other.

4 Some voicings will sound awful if played on the wrong strings even if the names of the notes played are correct.

5. Adding more levers/pedals, one needs to be aware of which strings one wants the changes to be in tune with.

Beeing in tune is always relative to something. The frets on the PSG is only accurate as a reference if you know how much you need to offset with the bar to get the note needed. Using your ears and listening to the rest of the music if there are others playing at the same time will be the best reference.

Beeing out of tune can sometimes sound nice also, but not all the time.

And maybe someone can answer, in the key of (JI)C the (JI)Dm seems to have a different structure than the (JI)Em so which minor is in tune and which is not?

Bengt Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 05 November 2004 at 02:13 AM.]

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

It's compromises like these that led me to Equal Temperment tuning. Life has been easier since.

Allan Thompson · From: Scotland.

With John on this one.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Please get back to topic and shed some light about what to be aware of when combining the two world JI and ET.
JI versus ET and how many of us use either one can be found in lots of other treads.

JI has the possibility to be perfectly in tune but one has to be aware of which string is used for reference or otherwise the intervals will be wrong. ET on the other hand is equally out of tune everywhere so if one want a "in tune" 3rd it will be played flat of the fret position. Both have compromizes one needs to be aware of.

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 05 November 2004 at 07:50 AM.]

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 05 November 2004 at 08:35 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 5 Nov 2004 8:55 am

Bengt, I looked into some of your type of questions several months back, and if you search on ET/JI threads you will find some of my comments. When you say the Dm and Em "structures" are different in the JI key of C, do you mean theoretically according to JI C scale intervals, or do you mean specifically on your pedal steel?

I put the theoretical JI C scale on paper, and began constructing theoretical chords from it. What I discovered was that the basic I, IV, V, VIm chords had intervals that would sound good. But several other less commonly used chords, such as II and VI, would be very bad sounding. What this told me is that a fixed pitch instrument like a piano, if tuned JI, cannot have all chords sounding good even if you stay in the key it is tuned JI to. The steel guitar (and bar chords on a regular guitar) does not have this problem. The bar takes the correct intervals of the tonic chord to any fret for a good sounding chord.

But, as you point out, when different strings are used as the root on a steel guitar, problems can arise with a pure JI tuned instrument. Straight steel players deal with this with compromise tunings somewhere between pure JI and pure ET, and with bar slants. On a pedal steel, bar slants can also help, and compensator pulls, for example on the F lever, can help. Figuring out where and how to set the compensators is an art, and will vary with the copedent. You can figure some things out on paper, but it may be easier to just play chords and listen to them to figure out where you need compensators. In doing this, you have to think through carefull which string you are tuning the chord to. Also, dissonant chords (7ths, 6ths, 9ths, etc.) do not have to be as precisely tuned as pure major and minor chords, which makes C6 or B6 necks much more forgiving than the E9 neck.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

David, I was using these ratios as a guide when comparing the IIm and the IIIm.
1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1

It seems the interval structure between the IIm and IIIm is not the same. The Major voicings seem to be the same compared Root to 3rd & 5th.

My guitar has a compromise between JI and ET, a slightly tampered tuning and in addition I will adjust bar position/slant/pressure to make sure the minor chord sounds as pleasant "in tune"? as possible in relation to where it is played (strings/position)

Somebody sittin behind a steel for the first time will probably not be aware that the guitar is out of tune some places and in tune other places no matter how it is tuned.
If we can find the pitfalls within each tuning system we can learn to avoid them and adjust accordingly or finding a way around certain problem areas.

Bengt

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 05 November 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 5 Nov 2004 10:56 am

Bengt, there are several ways to look at this, but they all give the same answer. I found a web site that gave the JI intervals for a full chromatic scale. I'm remembering what I did off the top of my head, but I think I converted that to 440 units, so that I could see that the tonic chord is 440, 437, 441, 440. So any major chord will have to have those same intervals to sound good. I then marched up the JI C scale getting the 440 units for each major chord. As I remember, the IV and V chord were passably close, but the II and VI chords were really far from those intervals. The same thing happens with the minor chords. If you assume the Am chord (VIm) in the JI C scale has the proper intervals for a JI minor chord, then the IIm came pretty close, but some of the other minors (forget which) were far from that.

What I took from that is that a fixed pitch JI tuned instrument such as a piano will sound okay in that one key as long as you stick to the basic chords in simple progressions (which is why JI was tolerated for so long). But it will not sound good if you venture into more complicated chord progressions. And of course, it wont sound good if you venture into different keys.

On E9 pedal steel, your JI tuned open E chord is infinitely movable with the bar, and the proper JI intervals will be maintained at any fret. When you use the AB pedal position, the 6th string changes from the JI flatted third of the E chord to the root of the A chord. That would be flat, but when we tune the pedal stop to play in tune with the unpedaled 8th and 4th strings, we make the proper adjustment by ear (cabinet drop lowers strings 8 and 4, so the whole chord may be flat, but that is a different issue). So the AB pedal position can also play a movable chord with proper JI intervals at any fret.

But when you go to the A pedal F lever position, there is no way to get a JI chord without altering the tuning of strings that will throw off the open chord and and AB pedal chord. However, compensators that pull some of the strings just enough to ge the right JI intervals will help that situation. Slight bar slants will also help, but are tricky, because you have to slant in a different direction for the upper strings and the lower strings.

There are three minor chord positions also, I haven't looked very closely at them, because they sound passable to my ear, unlike the A,F position.

The C6 and B6 necks have a whole other set of problems. However, the dissonance typical of the chords played on those necks makes intonation problems less noticable.

At some point, you can get so many pedals and knee combinations that you just can't get everything perfect with a reasonable number of compensators, and so some people give up and tune everything straight up. I have tried that, but I can't take it when my basic chords are that far out of tune with JI.

One thing I have noticed is that when playing with a group, or along with CDs, when my steel is down in the mix, the JI clash with ET tuned instruments sounds worse, but when my steel comes up in the mix and dominates, an ET tuning sounds worse and JI sounds best. Life is complicated.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 November 2004 at 10:57 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

If you train hands and then train your ears you will no longer have complicated tuning problems.

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Bob
intonation help

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Tuning straight up, like Mr. Emmons, avoids the other pitfalls of being out of tune with every other instrument on the bandstand.

From my experience, it takes a few years to get used to, but a lot less than the years on end you'll spend trying to explain why you're out of tune.

Also you can skip 250,000 word tail chasing expeditions on how to integrate a 43 note JI scale with 12 noters and trying to justify why the "E note" that the guitar player asks you to give him is different if you are using it for a third..

Pete and I at the Fez ballroom wondered how much metal in gram wt a guy would have to file off the C#s on a glockenspeil to be in tune with a JI steel...

Every one of these threads yields to me amazingly, a new reason to be out of tune. As if I needed any..

Some of them are real doozies...

But there's always...

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

RIGHT ON Eric. Much Ado About Nothing.
As a wise man said, "if you want to be in tune, you should not have decided to play the guitar".....JD

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

I'll go out on a limb and say; the sound of steel guitar tuned JI is a big part of it's suuccess with the public. That sound is simply more beautiful than ET. After all, when singers sing a triad, they are striving to make it JI. When violinists play an interval or chord, they are also trying to make it JI. The ideal backup for a steel solo is one where there is no electric guitar or keyboards to confuse the intonation. Acoustic guitars aren't as much of a problem because they don't sustain as much. Of course in the real world, we have to play with others and get along. Since the 1980's when midi and computer controlled pop music became the norm, JI has become heard less and less. (For a very exciting new development in keyboard tuning, go to: [url=http://www.hermode.de/)]http://www.hermode.de/)[/url]

Earnest Bovine has a really good method where he splits the difference between JI and ET. BTW, my main instrument is 6-string guitar. I try to play in JI as much as possible by subtle string bends and stretches. It works!

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

There is no such thing as a guitar or banger in tune.....think about it.........jennings

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

Of course, Jennings is right. But we can try, can't we?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Eric,
I can play in tune without any problems with a glockenspiel or any type of piano tuning, capoed acoustic guitars or whatever and I do not tune straight up or even close to straight up. I am one of those beats out JI guys. How you tune has very little to do with playing in tune. Playing in tune has almost nothing to do with tuners or mathmatical concepts. Those things are fun to talk about but will not help at all if your hands and ears are not happening. Believe me, I spent years working directly with Harry Partch's instruments and going over all the academic studies of tunings with some of the best musicians and composers in the world in music school.
If you don't get your ears together nothing will help.

And now a word from our sponser:
It just so happens I'm selling Cds of a way to train your ears for special price for you or anybody else with $10. "Wow !" you say "why so cheap ?". Well, its because I'm bad at adding and subtracting so $12.99 would be too confusing. I've sold a bunch of them and if you practice with them it works.

Click on the blue part under my name.

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Bob
intonation help

Dan Sawyer · From: Studio City, California, USA

Earnest and Bob, did you guys have a chance to click on the Hermode site, and what did you think of it?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

That Hermode Tuning site explains exactly what we do with the bar to use "JI tuning in an ET world". I think it's great that someone has finally put together an algorithm for MIDI instruments that corrects their tuning in real time, based on the context of what's being played.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

I'm with Hoff on this one big time. Go turn on the radio and tune in a country station and listen all day--you'll hear great, in-tune steel guitar that's about 95% or more JI. Doesn't seem to be hurting Paul, Sonny or Dan...

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

The Hermode tuning site is interesting. It looks like they have worked out some algorithms but it's not clear to me that they sell a product. Like b0b said, it's like what steel players do. We move the bar around, so we instantly change the key that our limited tuning can handle, allowing us to play in all keys.
Back before the earthquake, I planned to write a program to do something like that by adding pitch bend commands to MIDI files. It would have been different from the Hermode method in many ways. For example I never thought it could analyze real-time playing. This was partly due to hardware limitations (Atari ST) but more because I thought the program should look ahead and see how the intervals would resolve before deciding how to bend the pitches.
Unlike some of the methods on the Hermode site, I didn't analyze keys and chords. Instead, I would just determine what intervals were being played, and tune those.
The Hermode method tries to keep the average pitch of each individual chord centered around ET, allowing you to play with ET instruments. I assumed instead that there would be no other instruments besides the MIDI file, and I would let the pitch drift wherever it may over the course of a piece, minimizing the pitch change of each given sustained note as the context around it would change.
It never occurred to me to snap temporarily back into ET when the MIDI file becomes to complicated to analyze, as some of the methods on the Hermode site do. But I did want to include an adjustable "sweetness" factor which could take you part way back to ET. This factor would be something like the 3.5 cents narrowing of 5ths that Hermode mentions on page 2 of their description of Meantone tuning. On my steel I use meantone with 2.5 or a little less narrowing of 5ths, which is closer to ET, and has the very great advantage of sounding OK if a string goes a little out of tune accidentally. In listening to the Hermode examples, I would prefer them a little less sweet, and a little closer to ET. I think that is just the result of all these years of ET conditioning.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Hermode tuning is exactly what we do instinctively with our left hand, adjusting the tonal center of a JI chord to the ET reference of a bass/guitar/keyboard band.

I'd be very interested in buying a MIDI synth module that implements Hermode tuning. The bad tuning compromises have always scared me away from keyboard instruments. I'd probably play with Hermode at 100% all the time if I had it.

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

That Hermode site is fascinating! But I can't really hear the difference between the pure triads and the crappy triads on that site.

It's much easier to hear those kinds of differences on the steel guitar. Is that because of the timbre of our instrument?

-GV

David Doggett · Posted 8 Nov 2004 11:39 am

Greg, as a solid-body instrument, our steel guitars have more overtones than most acoustic instruments, and we sustain or even swell them with our volume pedal. We are overtone rich, and that emphasizes the ET/JI problem.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

To be more accurate, the steel guitar is even overtone rich. So is the oboe.

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Bob
intonation help

David Doggett · Posted 9 Nov 2004 7:06 am

Bob, I'm looking forward to hearing your overtones in Philly tomorrow night. You can hear Bob's overtones here:
http://www.rabbitsongs.com/music.htm

Listen to Lucky and Dance with Me. By the way, The Tin Angel is located over the Serrano restaurant (same owners). If a meal comes as part of the pay, you will eat well.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 09 November 2004 at 07:13 AM.]

Howard Tate · From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.

Bob, I've been having a problem sending you an email for some reason. I would like to have a drone cd, can you send paypal info to: howard@charmedmusic.com
Thanks.

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400 Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3

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