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Topic: Adding a Franklin Pedal to a P/P |
Ron Spears
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 3:47 pm |
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Can anyone help me with adding the Franklin change on pedal 4.
Do the 5 & 6 string need shock springs? Anybody got photo or some just some expert advice? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:09 pm
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| Is you sure you wanna do that? |
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Ron Spears
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:21 pm I am
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| I don't have a lvk on my SD-10 so I at least want the change on a pedal |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 4:23 pm
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I believe the F-P lowers strings 5,6 & 10 a whole step, so you'll probably need shock springs to balance the 6th and 10 string lowering changes after establishing the length of the pedal throw at the 5th string.
More importantly. to provide suffcient room to lower each string, you'll need to add quite a bit of slack before your 5th,6th and 10th string pulls kick in to leave room for the lower changes.
The result will be a longer and sloppier pedal A (and possibly pedal B). You may need to compensate by choosing a quicker pullrod location on the 5th st B--> C# changer finger, which will unfortunately, give you a stiffer pedal action.
I've not tried that change just because of this unique push-pull dilemma. Id be interested if anyone else has installed these changes on a P/P |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:45 pm
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| I have put the PF on a PP..... but I never did like the feel. I have had better luck with a split PF, i.e. lower 5 and 10 on a pedal and 6 lower on a knee. I generally lower 6 a full step on my RKL, so it works well with the pedal move. The split change gives you some other cool stuff too. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 26 Apr 2010 7:47 pm
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Back in the old days, we just moved the bar back two frets. 
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ron Spears
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2010 2:40 pm Added 5 & 6 Lower
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| Got a look at a Bryan Adams LVK with a 5 & 6 full tone lower setup on a P/P and was able to put that change on a 4th pedal without too much hassle. I'll work on the 10th string tomorrow |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Apr 2010 4:54 pm Re: Added 5 & 6 Lower
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| Ron Spears wrote: |
| Got a look at a Bryan Adams LVK with a 5 & 6 full tone lower setup on a P/P and was able to put that change on a 4th pedal without too much hassle. I'll work on the 10th string tomorrow |
The set-up is do-able, that's not the main problem.
It's the the extra slack that must be added to the 1st pedal to accomodate the full tone drop .......... For me, it's just too much of a trade-off. |
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Mike Cass
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Posted 28 Apr 2010 8:32 pm
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Mike Nolan's way is certainely doable, but consider this for a moment:
If you have a p/p guitar w/standard Emmons setup, add a stacked LKL inside your existing LKL to lower the B's to A, or place them on an LKV, then lower your 6th string G# to F# on the RKL.
That way you get the use of those changes, combined or separate, and the aforementioned pedal feel issue is non-existent, not to mention the added benefit of never having to move your left foot away from your A & B pedals to get the Franklin change or the B to A by itself
Lloyd Green once told me that if he ever added another lever it would feature the B to A change(string 5)placed in a spot where he could use it with a separate string6 whole-tone lower while maintaining access to his split pedals. My method satisfies those requirements nicely
As for springing the 5&10 string raises, its more the issue of using the correct holes in the raise finger....after you've hand tuned the changer for the B's to A and B's to C#, the string5 raise hook goes in the bottom hole closest to the body and gets no shock spring(place the set collar on the rod to allow room for the lower)....string10 hook goes in the middle hole and gets approx. 4 to 5 turns of spring(again placing the collar on the rod to allow room for the lower). Set your pedal stop for string 5, B to C# and use the spring to adjust the string10 raise to time out with 5. Ive done it on a number of guitars for my clients, none of whom has ever regretted it, to my knowledge.
Feel free to contact me regarding this matter, or any other questions you have concerning Emmons guitars. Hope this helps.
sincerely,
Mike Cass,
Sales/Service/Repair for Emmons Guitars by Lashley, Inc. of Burlington, N.C.
Factory Authorized Since 1987
ph# 615-446-5952
email: mwillsteel@comcast.net |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 28 Apr 2010 11:48 pm
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| Mike Cass wrote: |
.....after you've hand tuned the changer for the B's to A and B's to C#, the string5 raise hook goes in the bottom hole closest to the body and gets no shock spring(place the set collar on the rod to allow room for the lower)....string10 hook goes in the middle hole and gets approx. 4 to 5 turns of spring(again placing the collar on the rod to allow room for the lower). Set your pedal stop for string 5, B to C# and use the spring to adjust the string10 raise to time out with 5.....
Mike Cass,
Sales/Service/Repair for Emmons Guitars by Lashley, Inc. of Burlington, N.C.
Factory Authorized Since 1987
ph# 615-446-5952
email: mwillsteel@comcast.net |
Mike, I have nothing but respect for your vast Emmons knowledge, you are one of the P/P gurus, but....
I added the Franklin change on my'78 p/p tonite, adding the the 5th & 10th string lowers to my 4th pedal, (the 6th string drop is already on RKL). I set up the changer finger leverages just the way you described.
The changes worked well, but I didn't like the resulting stiffer A pedal action. So I changed it back. The trade-off just was not worth it to me!
After that, I decided to set the PF it on my Zum (all pull) which didn't affect the pedal "A" action (no surprise there)......this gave a much better result IMHO.
BTW, I'm still loving the re-mica job you did on the P/P. After your explanation, I was able to get both changers squared up to the body w/o any trouble.....it has gobs of sustain. Also, I polished both ends of the cross-shafts where they sit in the aprons, now the guitar plays nearly as easy and smooth as the Zum. Thanks for all your phone advice & support! |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 29 Apr 2010 6:08 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
| Back in the old days, we just moved the bar back two frets. |
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 29 Apr 2010 11:28 am
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Next I'll add the Aretha Franklin change, which gives you a killer horn section when you mash the pedal.  |
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Mike Cass
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Posted 29 Apr 2010 10:07 pm
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Tony,
first off, thanks for the kind words, but Im no push-pull guru; the only person Im familiar with as having that particular qualification still lives in Hermitage, Tennessee.
Sorry you werent able to achieve the desired feel.
Notice that I used the term "approx." in my previous post, which means that one might have to experiment a bit due to that fact that each guitar is minutely different. Your pedal stop bar may be a bit lower or higher than another guitars', or the cross shaft bearings may be a hair lower or higher in the front and back aprons than on another. Your swivels may have some undesirable slop, some of your bellcranks may lean too far right or left for one reason or another, etc, etc, etc.....all of which can radically alter a guitars' feel if not addressed before or during the setup procedure.
Many other factors come into play as well when addressing more modern note changes w/regard to installing them on the p/p guitar.
Not to seem arrogant here, but in my particular case, being Factory Authorized means knowing how to resolve or work around those issues. I feel certain that I couldnt step into your profession and immediately know all the tricks of your trade either, so dont beat yourself up 
Remember, Big Ron WAS a Professor of Physics, and Buddy and he did teach me a few little things about the push-pull mechanism(which Buddy Emmons single-handedly invented), hence that Factory Authorization which I earned way back in 1987....many, many, many, many push-pull guitars ago...long before most of my repair-oriented contemporaries, which may explain why they usually call me when they get in a jam working on someone elses guitar.
Youre taking the right track, Tony: learn first on your own axe before hanging out the repair shingle
Glad youre still happy with the mica job! Sometime you might want to have me set one up for you
sincerely,
Mike Cass
Sales/Service/Repair for Emmons Guitars by Lashley, Inc. of Burlington, N.C.
Factory Authorized since 1987
ph# 615-446-5952
email: mwillsteel@comcast.net |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 29 Apr 2010 10:51 pm
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| Mike Cass wrote: |
| ....You're taking the right track, Tony: learn first on your own axe before hanging out the repair shingle - Mike Cass |
Mike, no worries there......I have neither the time nor interest in "hanging out a (steel guitar) repair shingle".
Working at Sierra Steel Guitars for 4 years; building, setting-up and repairing others' guitars was enough for me. I just like working on my own instruments. |
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Mike Cass
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Posted 29 Apr 2010 11:08 pm
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| Tony, wasnt referring to you...... |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 30 Apr 2010 11:55 am Franklin Change on Emmons PP via 2 knee levers
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'thought I would share some recent history regarding Mike Cass's gutting and mechanical rebuild of my '79 Emmons Rosewood D10 PP last January. It was previously standard 8+4 set-up.
Per Mike's prior posting on this subject, Mike added a Forward LKL (forward meaning toward the front of the guitar), to lower 5th string from B to A - and I'm glad he did. Used either by itself, or together with the RKL lowering 6th string G# to F# to achive "The Franklin Change" - that Forward LKL yields some great stuff. Plus, don't have to move left foot away from AB pedals.
Another feature is if I want Fwd LKL to drop 5th string from B to Bb, that's a simple adjustment via screw at the endplate.
Best part = feel of A Pedal remains as its always been (I bought the guitar in '79)
Mike also added LKL, LKR, and LKV to my C6th set-up.
So what was 8+4.... is now 8+8.
I'm completely satisfied with Mike's personal recommendations prior to the rebuild, and his expertise / quality of the completed product. |
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Mike Cass
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Posted 30 Apr 2010 8:10 pm
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hi Ron,
thank you much for your articulate and informative post on this subject. I think it helps when a recipient of that setup can give the 411 on the end result. It is doable, and this proves it, thanks.
ps....glad we kept E's signature and didnt remica
sincerely,
Mike Cass
Sales/Service/Repair for Emmons Guitars by Lashley, Inc. of Burlington, N.C.
Factory Authorized Since 1987
Ph# 615-446-5952
email: mwillsteel@comcast.net |
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Will VanHoye
From:
West Virginia USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2016 7:42 am adding the Franklin pedal to a Emmons push pull
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I added the change on pedal 4 on my 1972 8&8 Emmons push pull to lower strings 5 & 10 B to A and it has no interfearance with the A pedal or any of the other pedals. I lower string 6 on RKL a full tone and also have a with a 1/2 tone tuner on it and can get a split.but the 6th string does lower a full tone and I can get the Franklin change with pedal 4 and my RKL. I have my LKV lowering 5 & 10 1/2 B to Bb and an inside LKL raising 5 & 10 from B to C to get a split almost like using the 1/2 pedal on pedal A so with this set up Crawford cluster if you will call it that I get my split changes and the Franklin pedal change on a Emmons push pull and it works smoooooooth as butter. if you can work on an Emmons push pull you can get it to do any thing you want I am self tought have owning this guitar over 20 years.
Last edited by Will VanHoye on 22 Sep 2016 5:52 am; edited 17 times in total |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2016 5:49 pm
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Franklin pedal is a waste of time !
_________________
Bill |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Sep 2016 12:27 am
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| Bill Moran wrote: |
| Franklin pedal is a waste of time ! |
Huh ? Hopefully that is a joke. 
I recently acquired a PP which had the FP on PED 4, lowering 5 and 10, 6 was on the K lever. It was just to stiff for me. The Steel is back to standard ABC and C6th configuration.
On an ALL Pull Steel, the FP is a breeze to add and a very music productive addition.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Duane Becker
From:
Elk,Wa 99009 USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2016 6:38 am
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| I had Mike Cass add the Franklin change on my pp, using my rkl that already lowered the 6 string G# to F# and my vertical knee that already lowered the 5 string from B to Bb. This combo of knees for me works great for the Franklin change, and as others have already said, I don't have to move my foot around on the pedals. |
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Will VanHoye
From:
West Virginia USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2016 6:03 pm adding sthe Franklin pedal to a Emmons push pull
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| The Franklin pedal works fine if you know how to use it.I dont have mine set up like the Franklin change I do lower 5&10 a whole tone on pedal 4 and I lower 6 a whole tone on RKL by using them separate you can create lots of licks and chord voicings.I work in bands that do a lot of modern country and I need the changes that are on the record if you cant keep up with the big dogs stay on the porch right. |
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