locrian mode: when/where to use

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 23 Oct 2004 12:28 pm

In his advanced C6 course, D.Jernigan advises regular practice of various scales including the Locrian. One clear use of the Locrian mode I understood was over a #9 chord. I would of liked to hear him expand a little more on it though. My impression is he may be using it for a more "outside" sound in other ways, such as over dominant 7ths(altered?). Can anyone shed some more light on this? Thanks.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Oct 2004 1:44 pm

It's basically a mi7b5 scale. There's also a b6 so there's a almost an augmented element to it as well.

C Locrian is a Db Major scale starting on C
The scale has everything flatted that can be (you can't flat the tonic, it would change the key; you can't flat the 4th because it would become a major third and there's already a minor third)

C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

And, yes it can be used over either a C7#9 (the raised 9 is Eb) or any of the Cmi7 family chords. It also has a b6, so that makes it a little further 'out'. Cool substitution.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 29 Oct 2004 2:36 pm

In the previous reply, if you were to use Fb (enharmonically E) you would have a C Altered Dominant scale. This is the essence of the Charlie Parker sound.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 29 Oct 2004 4:04 pm

Thank you. My confusion is now cleared up.
What Doug J. is calling a "Locrian" is actually the "altered dominant scale". He's in fact playing C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C, but refering to it as "Locrian". Maybe this explains in part why Doug reminded me so much of Parker.

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 29 Oct 2004 4:05 pm

This scale is a great example of something that is actually easier on the psg becuase you have frets. (I never thought I'd say anything is easier to play on a pedal steel.) As Larry said above, to play the C locrian over a C minor b5 chord, you can play the Db scale notes, focusing on the major 7th degree, C. I think it's a lot easier to remember to play the major scale 1/2 step above the root of the chord (the C note in a C minor b5) than it is to remember the theory behind it.

SK

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 29 Oct 2004 9:05 pm

What Doug J. is calling a "Locrian" is actually the "altered dominant scale".

Often that's called the "Super Locrian." Maybe that's where Doug was coming from there.

I'm looking through Doug's scale syllabus, and there he gives the Locrian scale as it is described above, and the Super Locrian he names the Diminished Whole Tone.

Another way to get the Super Locrian (or Altered) scale is to just play a Melodic Minor scale a half-step up. A Melodic Minor scale is a major scale with the third flatted. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 29 October 2004 at 10:10 PM.]

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 30 Oct 2004 3:17 pm

OK....
"super locrian"= "altered dominant"="diminished wholetone".

This scale is more self explainitory as to where to use it.
thanks.

Richard Nelson · Post by **Richard Nelson** » 31 Oct 2004 8:45 am

Its slso called Minor maj7 . Jazz minor and lydian augmented, depending whose book you got it from. Only one note different from locrian but sounds very jazz used over major and minor 2-5-1 . Get out there but dont' forget to come home.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 31 Oct 2004 3:19 pm

Interesting, indeed, and in it's own way, over my head, but I'm also curious (English teacher type) about the name, a word which I've never heard before. Where does it come from?

I might be able to grasp that, at least.

James
Sho-Bud LDG

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Oct 2004 3:59 pm

Locris was a region of ancient Greece. Most (if not all) of the 'church modes' are derived from Greek names/places.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 Oct 2004 4:41 pm

Hi Larry, sorry I didn't make it up to hear you play in Grand Rapids before the move south. I hope the hurricane didn't take anything irreplaceable.

Steven, I don't know if this will interest you or not, but just to take care of a few loose ends:

The thing that ties this all together in a person's mind is learning how a particular parent scale gives birth to "modes," by sticking with the same pattern of notes but, for each mode, starting and ending on a different note in that parent pattern.

The Locrian mode is the 7th mode of the Diatonic Major scale (Ionian mode), because it starts and ends on the 7th note of that parent scale.

The Altered Dominant (Super Locrian) is the 7th mode of the Melodic Minor (or Jazz Minor), because it starts and ends on the 7th note of that parent scale.

You can play the parent scale anywhere one of its modes is appropriate, provided you know how to shift the root notes as described above.

Even if you choose to learn and practice each mode separately, it still is extremely helpful -- I would say necessary -- to understand how they all fit together into the family of a particular parent scale.

Certain of the modes in each parent scale are more useful than others. Someone above mentioned what can be called the Lydian Augmented; that's the third mode of the Melodic Minor, because it starts and ends on the Melodic Minor's third note.

(To be classically correct in terminology, the Melodic Minor is actually what's called the Ascending Melodic minor, because also playing that sequence of notes going down used to be discouraged.)

The term "Jazz Minor" refers to the (Ascending) Melodic Minor being played both up and down.

The modes of both the major scale and the Melodic Minor play a significant role in jazz. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 31 October 2004 at 04:49 PM.]

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 1 Nov 2004 6:24 am

On the subject of modes-I am confused by the use of modes in what I call a Minor Blues progression.For Ex: The Thrill is Gone BBKing.The basic chords I have played are Ami,Dmi,Ami,FM7 Emi Soloing with a blues scale in A with a little FM7 thrown in. Is this tune really a III,VI,III,I ,VII in the key of F and should the Emi instead be half diminished with locrian played over it?

[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 01 November 2004 at 06:54 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Nov 2004 8:15 am

Mark, I've soloed over "The Thrill Is Gone" on a couple of occasions. Your key is Am. The Am,Dm,Am part of the song is like an A7,D7,A7 progression, i.e a I,IV,I in the key of A. Most of your blues lines that would play over A7,D7,A7 would work over Am,Dm,Am. A trick note to be aware of is the F note in the Dm. If you play an F# (commonly used over the D7 in A7,D7,A7 blues) over that F note in Dm, it can sound off, though actually it can work if you use properly. For the F chord, use lines that you play over the Am or Dm with a minor adjustment here or there based on your ears. Over the Em chord, substitute an E7#9 or Bb13 chord and use the F melodic minor scale for a few altered notes to cover it.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 November 2004 at 08:23 AM.]

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 1 Nov 2004 9:54 am

Thanks Jeff.Looking into modes always gets me into a tailspin about somthing.