The Steel Guitar Forum

I am thinking my next PSG might be a classic Emmons or Sho Bud. Taking into consideration both of these companies have gone through different phases, are there certain years that are considered golden era for these instruments? For instance I know pot metal parts were used on some Sho Buds for a number of years and are usually replaced at some expense.
I have read through the forum that push pull Emmons are considered to be tonally superior. Are there inherent problems or quirks associated with this system?

Many people think that the two-hole puller Buds were the best of the lot, although many who think the tone matters most like the Perms. Pull-release does have exceptional tone.
Push-pull Emmons require a different method to tune, similar to a pull-release. The mechanism is dead simple, but if it's just a smidge out of adjustment it'll drive you crazy (just like the pull-release. It's a lot like pull-release, except it handles lowers a bit differently). Also, if you both raise and lower a string, the raise MUST have enough slack to allow the lower to drop all the way. If you lower 6, the B pedal will travel a good way before anything happens. If you don't like the slack and the "notchiness" that goes with it, then push-pull might not be for you.

Well it kinda depends on whats most important to the player /owner.

For Sho Bud probably the best TONE years were the early years right up thru the 2 hole puller years, more so Professionals and early issue Pro 1,s 11's and IIIs. But the best TUNING/Setup Sho Bud all pull system years followed with the "termed" Super Pro systems, 3 up , 2 down changers with 5 hole pullers. This all pull series of Sho Buds probably don't sound like the earlier series but they do indeed sound great plus have the advantage of easy setup and the ability to change configurations very easily. I have owned a couple of Pro III's with the two hole puller systems and indeed they have a "growl" built in , I also own two of the later years guitars where the setup and action are leagues better than the earlier systems and they to me, also sound great, different, but still great.

Emmons , well, same thing. The Push Pull systems have a unique tone, nobody would argue, but you could chase changing a configuration or being in tune if you are not of the mindset of understanding how that changer system works. You cannot just add a pull or lower on a whim should you want to. Then followed the Legrande ALL PULL systems , Legrande, II and III. These are simple, exceptionally designed systems which not only sound good but are capable of making fast changes very easily. The II's and III's with 14 hole bell cranks along with a few other adjustment points allows these guitars to be set up smooth as silk.

There are several factors to consider, if the undeniable tone is what you are chasing then the early Sho Bud and the Push Pulls would be on the list, but if other factors, like action, setup and the ability to add a pull or lower with no effort then certainly the later years guitars should be on the list. I also own a P Pull and a Legrande II , to me they are both fine guitars and I play them a bit differently, the LII certainly has way more flexibility with setup and action as well as the ability of split tuning on each string. Do they sound different ? yeah probably, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other.

One shoe does not fit all.

If you don't like the slack and the "notchiness" that goes with it, then push-pull might not be for you.

I respectfully disagree Lane. If a P/P plays like that you need to have a proper set up done. What you say about slack in the raise, etc. is true, but I think the P/P gets a lot of very unfavorable press about 'playability' by folks who form an opinion playing one that is poorly setup. In my experience with more P/Ps than I like to think about, a good mechanic will all but eliminate those issues. However, as Tony mentioned, if you like to try a new change every other week, a P/P may not be the best choice.

I'll also qualify my opinions by saying I'm very prejudiced toward P/Ps, they just work the best for me, but they definitely aren't for everybody.

When did the pot metal show up in Sho buds?

I believe the pot metal parts started in the late 70's. Like 78,79.

Bill Terry wrote:

If you don't like the slack and the "notchiness" that goes with it, then push-pull might not be for you.

I respectfully disagree Lane. If a P/P plays like that you need to have a proper set up done. What you say about slack in the raise, etc. is true, but I think the P/P gets a lot of very unfavorable press about 'playability' by folks who form an opinion playing one that is poorly setup. In my experience with more P/Ps than I like to think about, a good mechanic will all but eliminate those issues. However, as Tony mentioned, if you like to try a new change every other week, a P/P may not be the best choice.

I'll also qualify my opinions by saying I'm very prejudiced toward P/Ps, they just work the best for me, but they definitely aren't for everybody.

Very true Bill. I have 3 guitars, Fessy, SKH Emmons and a 74 push pull. I think my push pull plays just as good as any guitar I have and they are all set up properly. Pedals are smooth and positive and same for knee levers. Half stop is wonderful on second string. Guitar stays in tune much better than any all pull guitars. Buddy and Ron were geniuses in the design of the push pull. Very simple mechanism really and works great. I may add that nothing plays any worse than a push pull improperly set up. I've owned a lot of guitars and still, P/P's are my favorite but not for everyone as Bill stated..

I may add that nothing plays any worse than a push pull improperly set up.

Exactly Henry.. horrible. I also agree with your points about tuning stability, and the elegance of the mechanism. But we're preaching to the choir with P/P guys.

I also owned a very nice first year Sho-Bud LDG with barrels on 2-hole pullers for a good while, and a Pro II from the same era. They were great guitars for tone and easy of 'maintenance' or making changes. Unfortunately, neither one stayed in tune quite as well as any of my P/Ps. But a Sho-Bud from that era again is certainly a great guitar, and definitely meets the 'classic' criteria Brian mentioned.

Bill Terry wrote:

If you don't like the slack and the "notchiness" that goes with it, then push-pull might not be for you.

I respectfully disagree Lane. If a P/P plays like that you need to have a proper set up done. What you say about slack in the raise, etc. is true, but I think the P/P gets a lot of very unfavorable press about 'playability' by folks who form an opinion playing one that is poorly setup. In my experience with more P/Ps than I like to think about, a good mechanic will all but eliminate those issues. However, as Tony mentioned, if you like to try a new change every other week, a P/P may not be the best choice.

I'll also qualify my opinions by saying I'm very prejudiced toward P/Ps, they just work the best for me, but they definitely aren't for everybody.

There will necessarily be a "notch" or "hitch" when you take up the slack and it starts raising.
It's also difficult to time raises if either string has more than one raise in it. So you'll feel that notch.
They're not objectionable. In fact, they're part of the soul of the push-pull.
I own one; I miss it; if I ever find it, I'm taking it back.

I have a few Emmons PP's and have owned a bunch of other ones.

64 Wrap around : Sounds amazing. Like whatever it is that is awesome about a PP with Bigsby mixed in. It's a honkytonk machine.

66 Bolt on : They are beasts. They sound loud and aggressive at any volume. Buddy Charleton said they where his favorite.

67 Cut Tail: My favorite overall. Has what I love about the PP sound. It can go from full, pearly and sweet sounding to samurai sword slicing its way through everything just by changing your mind.

It seems like every phase of Emmons guitars has its thing. Its been fun getting to know them.

I gotta say I do like the sound of the LeGrandes also.
If I ever get ahead again I want to have one of them.

If you want a steel that is mechanically perfect do not get an Emmons. I love them but they are like driving a tractor compared to a Corolla . A tractor is a little more work to drive but it will always pull you out of the mud !

New guitars tend to be more accurate and easy to play. They are not really new anymore but Zumsteels are built like Swiss watches.

My vote goes to the Emmons LeGrande III with the anti- de-tune feature.There last and most advanced guitar they made. I've never experienced any other guitar that was totally unaffected by the plague of cabinet drop. 14 hole pullers make timing alot easier and the sound is great. My only complaint wit Emmons is their short pedals. Ron

Bill Terry wrote: issues. However, as Tony mentioned, if you like to try a new change every other week, a P/P may not be the best choice.

Well with regard to Push Pulls vs All Pulls, it's not about making a change every other week but rather having the ability to make a change or set up change very quickly. Adding an additional change to an existing knee lever cross rod and dialing it in very quickly. Something like changing 7 raise to 6 lower for a weekend gig on the same lever. Thats a 5 min event.

I love playing the Push Pull that I have and I do lean towards bringing that one to gigs, but, should I bring the Legrande II I'm never sorry. About 2 songs into the gig I am reminded just how fine an instrument it is. The Push Pull plays just fine to me but it is not the same as playing the all pull Legrande II.

As Bob Hoffnar says, the Push Pull is like driving an older car while the Legrandes are like driving a new Caddy ! The "old car" analogy isn't a bad thing or a diss, it's just describing a difference, you learn to play the Push Pulls a bit differently than the newer guitars, maybe the term "work a little harder" is accurate. A 54 Chevy without power steering still goes around corners.

By the way this same analogy goes for the Sho Buds, Professionals and two hole puller guitars vs the newer Super Pro systems. Same deal.

The question was raised with regard to Sho Buds and pot metal, when did that arrive. Yes, somewhere around the late 70's, the design of the all pull system and changer is excellent, very easy to set up and get excellent action. 5 hole pot metal pullers on hex shafts with the new easy on/off rod clips. IF someone were to be so inclined , they could replace the pot metal pullers with aluminum 5 or 9 hole pullers from PSG parts. I own and play a 78 Pro I with this system, no issues, very smooth action, very consistent and sounds just fine.

I have a '78 Sho~Bud LDG and had a pot metal knee lever bracket break on me last year. The others were OK, but I just replaced all 4 to be safe. I've had no other problems (bell cranks,etc). At some point soon, I want to rip it apart, clean the changer, add a 4th pedal & modify the copedent a bit. Should be fun (he typed)...

Mechanically speaking, it's a nicely built instrument (IMHO). Full disclosure on the previous statement - 1. this is the only Steel I have ever owned, so I suppose I have a bias or partial ignorance of other builders. 2. I'm a pipe organ technician by trade, so as a curator of musical machines (albeit very different ones), I think Sho~Bud built a nice machine.

Ronnie Boettcher wrote:I believe the pot metal parts started in the late 70's. Like 78,79.

It seemed to coincide with when the AMF co. bought Harley Davidson and started using pot metal on the motorcycles. Just a coincidence
JB

The Emmons Bolt-On is my favorite Emmons, they came with pick ups wound around 14K. Loud and proud.

Bolt-ons came with all sorts of pickups. I had a red belly Bolt-on built on a Wraparound cabinet that had 14.4 k and 14.6 k pickups. I had 1090D that had split coils that had 13.9k and 22k taps.

I think the best Emmons guitars were the ones with 24 frets and the best sounding Sho-Buds were the ones that sounded more like an Emmons -- the first Permanents with no rear apron, a very light cabinet, no outside endplates, light pickups, even with taps, and very few parts attached to the cabinet.

Mike wrote:The Emmons Bolt-On is my favorite Emmons, they came with pick ups wound around 14K.

I think I agree. I recently bought a bolt-on to replace a back-up guitar that I sold. They definitely have something going on that I like a lot, in fact I liked it so much I bought another one. I'm curious about a wraparound as well, but I don't think I'll ever have the cash to do anything about it.

Assuming you take a wrap out of the conversation, in talking with other P/P guys, many seem to prefer the later cut-tails, saying the bolt-on is too harsh or brassy sounding. FWIW, both of mine ('66 and '67) have original PUs in the 16.5K range. I have no problem cutting through the usual band roar with either of those guitars.