Bar for Non-Gauged Nut Rollers

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Jul 2004 7:20 pm

In another thread, Carl Dixon wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>IMO, gauged rollers that leave the tops of all strings perfectly coplanar flat is the single greatest need since the steel guitar was invented.

The reason for this is, I know of no other instrument that is subject to a built-in problem that accompanies a pefectly flat steel bar. As such, the incessant and continued "rattle" problem at the lower frets should have been solved long ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now here's a nutty product idea. How about a bar that isn't perfectly flat? It would vary in diameter to match the different heights of strings caused by using the same rollers for different gauges of strings.

Where is Bill Hankey when we need him?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 17 Jul 2004 11:16 pm

Like This?

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 17 Jul 2004 11:19 pm

In fact, you could have a nut that strings go UNDER, not over (the tuning pegs would have to be higher than the nut), and then your flatness would be built-in. Disadvantage would be, no way to slide down-and-off to "fret zero" (open) in a smooth way.

-dean-

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 18 Jul 2004 1:00 am

Cute Peter... Funny thing is, on many a night, my bar actually looked like that.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Jul 2004 3:09 am

Richard... time to adjust the meds.

Just kidding.

Though I felt the same way playing a gig with no sleep for 30 hours after a transatlantic flight. Thoose jazz chord charts were swimming for sure.

Bob, the idea is interesting, the problem is that close to the nut the height changes unevenly, but over most of the neck it is effectviely flat.
At least seems that way with adequate bar presure to make a good tone.

I do use a tapered Black Phonix, because it gives me a light touch on small strings and more heft for the lower more resonant / bouncy strings. Especially on C6.

But Carl gets to the point of the height problem
Graduated nut rollers would solve it.
I always see smart squirrels in mortar board hats and black gowns,when I see that phrase.

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 18 Jul 2004 4:12 am

Speaking of Bill Hankey, anyone heard how he is doing?

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Bill

http://www.wgpeters.com
Mullen RP U-12, Cougar SD-10, PV-260, Tubefex, PV TNT-115, Gibson SG, Squier P-Bass, Berhinger V-amp Pro

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 18 Jul 2004 5:44 am

Mercy, that photo of that bar looks like something from a bad dream !
Hey b0b, you still make trips to Brea ? Like to catch ya sometime.

Carl West

Sonny Priddy · Post by **Sonny Priddy** » 18 Jul 2004 6:48 am

The Bar Look's Like A Cam Shift for A Car Motor. HA.

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C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jul 2004 7:05 am

To bring you up to date on my saga and number one "pet peave" on steel guitars, I am waiting anxiously for yet another set of "gauged" rollers. Only this time, some very interesting revelations from a very concientious man.

I have received many phone calls from him since I sent my old keyless head to him, so he could make me a set of "gauged rollers". They were shipped this past week. He is my kind of machinist.

IE, he KNOWS the problem. Also, he agrees that the cure is anything but simple. A conclusion I came to years ago. The facts are that after a number of gauged rollers on all my guitars have been tried, NOT one has been satifactory. In fact the last set that was sent to me (about a month ago), was the worst I have ever received.

In a word, as this fine machinist tells me (and I agree), "it is so critical that even a perfect set on one guitar will not be right on another same make and model guitar."

There are many things that play a definite role in whether or not the bar makes contact with EACH string with light bar pressure. With no pressure, it is almost an impossible attainability. The tolerances are just tooo small.

Yet he tells me he CAN and WILL get them right. Would you believe that even the angle that the string leaves the roller towards the key post makes a difference? "Yes it does" says he.

I believe him. Incidently, since he is no longer doing this, he has asked that I not post his name. I will honor this, but I would be remiss if I did not tell you, how dedicated and nice he is to work with. He has taught me many things in our frequent conversations.

I have known for a long time that the requirements for getting the tops of strings to be 100% coplanar flat was much much more difficult than what is usually described on this forum. However, he says he has gotten them dead on 100's of times. But, "It does require always, trial and error on one or two rollers" after he ships them.

Again, I believe this. One anecdote story I will share with you. He made a set for a player one time and later realized he had shipped the wrong set to the player. He called him when he discovered it to advise and apologize when the player said, "I installed them and they're better than any I have ever had, I am not going to change them!".

Now that should say something about this gentleman. I never ever dreamed I would meet a machinist more infinitely detail oriented than me

, but I have. And I thank Jesus for him.

And one of the greatest things of all is the following,

"carl, I WILL get them right, NO matter what it takes. But it WILL take several attempts to get them perfect, but I will not be satisfied until you are! And when they are right, you will not believe how wonderful it is to no longer fight string rattle at the first fret."

Truly a man after my own heart. I can't wait. 55 yrs I have fought it. I know of nothing that aggravates me more than string rattle at the first fret since I use very light bar pressure.

Note: for those of you that are not bothered by it, I say you are blessed. I am; and it is a curse.

carl

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Jul 2004 7:15 am

Another way would be to have standard rollers, but with a roller mount that slides up and down.

With a really solid pair of Alan setscrews to lock it into place when heights are chosen, and couple it to the mass of the nut.

A nice metal edge laid on top and some adjustment would be pretty quick to adjust, and work if you changed strings down the line.

I would still want a few larger rollers for those huge C6 low strings though.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 July 2004 at 08:18 AM.]

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 18 Jul 2004 7:39 am

I think there is really a simple solution to the problem.I have not tried it but I am sure it would work. At this point I don't feel I should reveal the "Secret".Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Jul 2004 7:44 am

Thanks, Peter, for the great animation!

I was kidding, of course, and baiting my friend Carl just a little.

My pedal guitars all have gauged rollers, and none of them are right by Carl's standard. Still, it doesn't bother me. I apply a fair amount of pressure to the bar, perhaps more than I should.

I'm looking forward to seeing how well the newest Williams will measure up in this regard. I'll be taking delivery of a keyless D-12x next month.

Bill Hankey hasn't posted in over 3 months. I hope he's okay.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 18 Jul 2004 4:09 pm

FWIW....all Williams and Fulawka guitars come standard with gauged nut rollers. Zum has them, but to a lesser extent, I believe (I believe two sizes? A deeper cut roller for the low strings). These are the only builders I know of that have them.....thought it looks from another thread running right now that Mullen may be able to accomodate those with such a need...in fact, I'm looking into it currently.

Joe

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Jul 2004 4:59 pm

One final note and I will put it to bed for good.

I now believe that the common practice of gauging most of the middle strings to the same gauge, only changing the top couple and bottom 1 or 2 strings is patently counterproductive. Sadly this is the practice I am fast understanding that many who make gauged rollers do.

Again, if it is not a problem for a player, then of course nothing to worry about. But in my talks with a number of players, it is more than just a few of us. I believe there is no greater proof of this than the repeated number of posts about it on this forum and the inordinantly high number of "guaged" rollers that are sent AFTER the sale.

carl

Lefty · Post by **Lefty** » 18 Jul 2004 5:06 pm

The key item here is added expense for the manufactuer (dollars). You could vary the geometry of the individual roller, or create a fine tune height adjustment when you vary the string guage from standard, (and probably other ways I have not considered, including fine tuning the length ala the Buzz system. You could probably cure some other tuning problems discussed before (strings tuned not exactly 440). Either way you're adding complexity, and cost. Is it worth the additional cost. At my level of accomplishment I don't know. But for others probably so, and a very good thing to consider. An opinion. Interesting topic, Bob.
Lefty
Sho-Bud LDG
Dekley D-10

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jul 2004 6:24 pm

Criminy.

Take a wedge shaped file and deepen the groove in the soft brass roller. turn it as you deepen it all the way around. This doesn't require a surgical skill, or micromeasurement to get the groove within a ten thousanth.

I did this within a month of buying my ProIII.

It took me about an hour to get them all right,. I just had to do the first three strings on each neck.

Or, wait for someone to offer individually adjustable ones to make these 6000$ guitars cost 7000$.

EJL

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 19 Jul 2004 11:23 am

hey carl- whatever happened to that guy who was making the adjustable ones from a few months back...posted some really encouraging diagrams and photos with the roller on a height adjustable shaft... I forget the name...

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Jul 2004 12:54 pm

Dave,

He was making that for his use only. He is not interested in making them to sell. He just wanted to show us what was possible. I believe it was an incredibly good idea. I wish every steel guitar ever built had them.

But I tend to agree with him. Here is why, the keyhead stocks are soooooo very varied, it could turn into a mechanical nightmare.

What I believe would be a much greater thing is if the manufacturer's would consider it or something similar and just incorporate it like anything else.

Consider the following. It costs extra money to:

1. Put rollers at the nut rather than a straight bar.

2. Put adjustable ends on pedal rods.

3. Lable the pedal rods.

4. Return spring adjustment screws.

5. PU adjustment screws.

etc,

None of the above IMO, comes any where close to the need to insure that the strings are coplaner at the nut.

Finally, the cost would undoubtedly go up of course, if they provided them. Just as the LeGrande III costs much more than a LeGrande II. But they sell them all the time.

Why?

carl