U12 question: low strings and tone balance

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

After a few years of hiatus I'm back to regular steel gigs and this quandary has returned..

The balance between the wound lower strings and the plain higher ones seems tonally off to me. Like when the low strings are clear with audible string separation, the top end is ice-picky shrill. And vice/verse when I have a good setting for the high strings, the bottom end is muddy and "woofy".
Obviously when the strings are fresh it's less of a problem but after a few gigs the low strings start to loose their luster while the high strings stay chimey and bright.
I'm a "one big tuning type" and don't ever use the Change-Lok to stay in either E9 or B6.

I play a Sierra U12 (keyless) and usually buy GHS boomer strings (dynamite alloy) and use a Fender Vibrolux with high wattage Webber 10's. When I've played gigs on amps that have a single "15, the low string tone is definitely more clear, but the balance issue is still the same.

Any of you U12 guys feel me on this?
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🏻

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Get a Tonealigner pickup. Since the neck coil isn't as bright as the bridge coil, you can put the low strings more bridge coil and the high strings more neck coil.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

Thanks Lane, Bob made me one a while back and I liked it but I went back to the Wright Custom PU that came with the Sierra because of the single coil/humbucker switch.
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🏻

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

What can I say? Life's about tradeoffs...
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Do you have the triple range pickup in your Sierra? The Dan Shields model with the center row of screws? Those came stock with many Sierra upper end guitars. I was always able to get a decent balance using one or the other of the positions.

I never messed with those screws so I don't know if they effect the volume of individual strings or not, since it doesn't seem that the actual pole pieces move vertically.

You might try stainless steel sets....the wound strings have a little brighter tone.

I don't have a real good pic, but this is the one that is on the 14 I used to own.

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

Jerry thanks, no the pickup is a Wright Custom (non adjustable pole pieces) and there's a 3 position selector switch which I use all the time. I've tried stainless before and they're pretty cool but I think I prefer the tone of the GHS alloys. I haven't tried Jagwire, cobra or Livesteel yet - Maybe that's a missing link.
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🏻

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Gary, have you tried lighter gauge strings on the ones that sound fat? And do you use a plain or wound 6th?
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I would shop around for one of the Danny Shields triple range pickups if I were you. If you didn't like the stainless set, I don't know what else to suggest.

Maybe a different type of amp system. One that's designed for pedal steel guitar.

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

Hey thanks for the suggestions gents,
Ian-yeah I've fooled around with different gauges and maybe should continue to do so. Problem is I love the way it sounds when I have the right treble setting ( which makes the top end strident)
'Preciate the input! I'll keep tweaking.
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🏻

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I have had this problem and when I hear something I don't like I would turn down that part lows etc. ending up with most of my tone controls down low.
Finally I decided to turn everything all the way up on my amp. low and behold it seemed like as I turned up the bass it became clearer and better sounding.
Try different things with your tone controls.
Good Luck ! ^_^

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Ken makes a good point about technique. Another thing, make sure you are fairly aggressive with your attack. Hit those bottom strings with good snap. If you're dainty with your picking, your tone will be limp, lifeless and dull sounding.

OTOH, you might have the best technique around. May be purely an equipment issue. Not meaning to be patronizing, but speculative since we don't really know anything about your style. Smile

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

I don't have a problem with balance generally but the low B can be a little mushy. I use GHS and Ernie Ball strings. I've started using my Quilter Steelaire amp with the Eminence speaker and I'm pretty happy with the sound. All 12 strings are very clean. I also use a Roland Cube 80 XL and that low B distorts somewhat with that amp. The amp sounds so good I don't mind. Both amps are great.

I am real fussy about EQ and use a Boss GE-7 most of the time. My Sierra has both single coil and the Tom Morrell pickup with the three rows of pole pieces. Both sound great, lately I'm using the single but I change back and forth. My Zum has the stock single coil and it's about perfect. The Boss GE-7 fixes most issues.

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Correction, the Dan Shields pickup.

Gary Newcomb · From: AustinTexas, USA

Thanks for all the input fellas. This has been super helpful, I'll keep up the endeavor!
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Sierra Session U12, Milkman 1/2, Goodrich Omni, Divine Noise Cables, BJS, Solid cosmic gold, baby 👶🏻

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

The U12 has some unique qualities with balance and tone. It took me quite awhile to get a clear bass and mid without making the plain strings sound shrill. Then if I dialed in a usable tone with the plain strings the wound strings sounded muddy. Played musical chairs with pickups, amps, speakers, strings, cords and amplifiers. IMO, the pickup and speaker should get addressed first. That mid range honk players talk about gets accented
with the speaker choice and even more so with the U12. I use very little mid on the amp and back off on the bass and treble and raise the volume a bit as you lose volume when backing off the bass control. My 2 cents...🤓

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I tried just about every 12 string pickup ever made in my Sierra because it's so easy to do. I keep coming back to a single coil 17.5 Wallace True-Tone. With any humbucking pickup I get string separation issues and mud in the mid range and for me, clarity there is where the heart and soul of pedal steel tone lives. Plus only a single coil allows me to get a treble edge on the bass strings without the high strings sounding shrill. After that I need an amp with a parametric mid control which most all dedicated pedal steel amps have. I'll turn the boost/cut knob up pretty high into "boost" and sweep the mid frequency knob around till it sounds the absolute worst in the mid range and once that bad frequency is identified I then take the boost/cut knob and use it to cut that bad frequency. On any Peavey steel amp or my Fender Steel King it usually turns out to be about a 3 or 4 Db cut at somewhere around 2K. Then I add bass and highs to suit the room and my ear and that's my tone right there. A buffered volume pedal helps maintain clarity throughout the volume pedal range. On my Excel U12 I use the same Wallace pickup and amp EQ mid scoop procedure to get my sound the same way. If I have to use a humbucker like in a hi RF situation on a long term sitdown gig I'll use a Tonealigner or my original Shields Crap-Trap and make do. If I'm doing a fly gig and have to play thru a strange amp or a Fender Twin etc I'll employ my old MXR 10 band graphic EQ which I always carry and try to carve out a usable tone with that. So - single coil - scoop the mids.

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

I' I've had the same problem with my guitar, but I solved it by using the presence & bass knobs. I only use Peavey amps, which has these controls. The bass knob controls the sound of the lower strings which I want to hear when I hit the boo wah pedal. The presence knob controls the upper strings.
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U12 Williams keyless 400
Vegas 400, Nashville 112, Line 6 pod xt

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

I' I've had the same problem with my guitar, but I solved it by using the presence & bass knobs. I only use Peavey amps, which has these controls. The bass knob controls the sound of the lower strings which I want to hear when I hit the boo wah pedal. The presence knob controls the upper strings.
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U12 Williams keyless 400
Vegas 400, Nashville 112, Line 6 pod xt

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

that's why i was never a fan of fender tube amps for steel. no midrange to blend the thin highs with the woofy lows.
the warmer session 400 was a great relief when it came out.
of course some talented pickers have learned to adjust tone with their touch.

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

MJ,
yur speaking my language !!!......Don't forget too that the Excel has the longer scale , which add's tension to the strings , which give's it the "punch" , rather than the "flub" on the lower strings ... I don't know how he does it , but Jerry Wallace does a GREAT job with singe coil pickups that sound incredibly balanced without any outboard gear involved ....I don't like going to a Humbucker , but if I must , it has to have adjustable pole pieces, as found on the Clap Trap , etc .... Jim

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Gary,
I use a Fender Vibrolux at one rehearsal I go to, and it is an incredibly treble-ee amp.
I don't think you will ever get rid of your high end problem with that amp.
I also play a Sierra Session U12.
I am using a 17.5 true tone pickup, to Black Box, to telonics v-ped, to Walker Stereo Steel or Session 400.
Much much wider range of acceptable tone.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Another way to tame low end mud is to lower your pickup on the side with low strings.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

There are so many electronic and technique issues that effect tone. I have a 1976 U-12 MSA and a 1982 Zum U-12. The Zum has a Truetone wound to 18,000. The MSA has a Telonics double row adjustable. I prefer the Telonics for it's detailed adjustability and humbucking. The Truetone the best single coil.
I have two Peavy steel amps with modifications. I have three Peavey 1501 speakers, but each one has a slight different tone (through the same cabinet). My favorite is the old DT 1501. Speakers not designated for steel will promote more mids. My favorite and current amp is the Revelation tube preamp that gives TOTAL control of the tone range. I'm using a TC Electronic 350 for CLEAN and total control of reverb, delay and studio quality compression. Rack amp is an old Carvin. I have an additional stomp box effects rack board that I use in a loop between the guitar and amp with a bypass switch to keep it out of the loop when using my clean steel tone. Most stomp boxes will dull your tone. I use a Hilton pedal and an old ShoBud pot pedal combined with a Goodrich steel driver to clean up the pot travel tone change for a backup pedal. I use stainless wound for tone endurance (lasts longer). I've been experimenting tone for 47 years and wound up with the above. The final edge is picking technique.
Lots to ponder with tone and it can be frustrating. With my current rig, I can pull in ShoBud to Emmons tone and I like Buddy and Lloyd.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The combination of only 35 watts and no "mid" control sorta relegates the Vibrolux to rather limited capability for pedal steel. While it may be nice for guitar, or some E9th 10-string players, I think it comes up as pretty anemic for the universal, extended E9th, or C6th pedal steel tunings. Oh Well

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

It might just be the guitar. Over time I've owned five different brand U12s. Two of them had that problem. It was subtle but obvious enough it bothered me and I sold them.

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