should I go C6 ?

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 4 Jul 2004 3:15 am

Hello all,
I have an Emmons st 10 E9th with the rear neck padded.
I know my limitations and realise that I will always be playing small time.
I took me a long time to get around the E9 neck but I do ok in a small time way.
I am considering going C6.
I would appreciate any advice from the Forum on making the transition.Should I put my beloved Emmons in the hands of a guitar luthier to have the back neck installed? or should I look at buying another instrument?
I can get something of a 6th(ish)sound on the E9 neck so should I spend a bit more time on this technique?
I don't have loads of money to spend,but I do like quality.
Please remember that steels are a lot more expensive here in the U.K.than in the U.S.A.

Thanks for your help
Best regards
Billy

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 4 Jul 2004 3:23 am

Hello Bill, I have been considering C6 as well. So I tried a Universal guitar. I am a small time player and I discovered that the stringspacing on the Universal did not work for me. So I bought a used SB double neck. It will arrive next month (by ship).
I think rebuilding your guitar might be relatively more expensive. I would get a used double and keep the old guitar. You can decide later which guitar you want to sell.

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Peter den Hartogh
Emmons 1978 S10-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12
Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4-Guya "Stringmaster"
MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158
My Animation College in South Africa

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 4 Jul 2004 3:39 am

Hi Bill,
For a long time I wouldn't even think of C6th ( didn't like Jazz etc)and got a SD10, then I got hold of a Emmons D10, changed my whole outlook,I like that C6th now. My advice is get a D10 unless you're going gigging when weight might be a problem you can always sell you SD to offset the cost. Though I would never part with any Emmons.

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Ron (Chippy) Wood
Emmons D10

[This message was edited by Chippy Wood on 04 July 2004 at 04:40 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jul 2004 5:17 am

yes..go C6th...don't even hesitate... It's a brave new world..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 July 2004 at 06:18 AM.]

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 4 Jul 2004 5:17 am

Thanks for your early replys.
Good luck with your new instrument Peter, I hope you will keep us posted on your progress.
Ron,Like yourself I cannot part with my Emmons so I guess I will have to keep an eye out for a D10.One of my mates has 2 of them so perhaps he will lend me one for a decade or so to see if it suits me.
Are you one of the Scottish party going to the Irish PSGA convention in October?I will be there.
Thanks
Billy

Scotty Wenzel · Post by **Scotty Wenzel** » 4 Jul 2004 5:34 am

Hey Billy,

I was just sitting in that same boat and tryin' to decide if it was worth the jump. I recently bought a D-10 and in my humble opinion it definately is. The C6 opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Hope this helps!

sw

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Sho-Bud Pro III, G&L and Fender guitars, Ocarina, Comb/w paper

[This message was edited by Scotty Wenzel on 04 July 2004 at 06:35 AM.]

Carl West · Post by **Carl West** » 4 Jul 2004 5:40 am

YES, What Tony Prior said !

Carl West

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 4 Jul 2004 6:04 am

I would definitely go C6. It's not any harder to learn than the E9, it's just different. I try to split my time between the two necks everyday & I think it's working out OK. In addition to jazz, I like playing the old Hank Williams & Bob Wills tunes (but I have a D on top.) Go for it.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 4 Jul 2004 6:09 am

By all means, buy a U12 or D10. I can't see modifying your present guitar. You can talk to a professional rebuilder and get prices for adding the other neck but I think I know that it will be more expensive than selling yours and buying another.
You should not have any trouble getting used to the string spacing on a U12. I am so used to mine that I have trouble playing a 10 string. If you stick with the same guitar and play every day it will become normal for you.
Jeff Newman recommended not using a B6 lock on a U12 but I prefer to have one.
My U12 weighs about 30#. My D10 weighs about 45#.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Jul 2004 7:23 am

I don't play jazz at all, but I love C6th. It's great for western swing, Hawaiian, rock-a-billy, blues, rock and new age music. All of those forms can be played on E9th, but you have to be careful not to hit those easy A+B pedal country licks. Since those licks are more awkward on C6th, you're not as likely to make genre-bending mishaps.

Also, C6th has the low notes!

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 4 Jul 2004 8:16 am

Prior to pedals (as we know them now), very very few players did not play C6 as one of their arsenal of tunings. It was rare indeed to find a multi neck tuning where one of the tunings was not C6.

Then something happened. The revolutionizing of the steel guitar after Bud Isaacs set the world of steel guitar on fire changed our thinking. For a time, many of us felt that the pedal guitar would do away with multi necks. But that did not happen.

I believe this is due to the fact that the A6 and E13th popular lap tunings coming together with the advent of the A and B pedals, simply did not get it for players like Buddy, Jimmy Day and soo many others. Thus the advent of the double neck PSG with one of those necks being C6 based.

If you had been there prior to Bud Isaacs, in all likelyhood C6 would have been one of your main tunings if not THE main tuning; as it was for soooooo many players.

However, because of the awesomely unique E9th tuning, many today came into it direct (bypassing any semblance of C6 lap) and with its A and B instant inversion capability it would I agree seem, "what in the heck do you do with C6?"

I can only imagine a young E9th player becoming somewhat to a highly efficient player, sitting down to C6 for the first time. It must seem as out of place as Michael Jackson at a Roy Acuff "retunion"*.

But for those who aspire to play the "elbow neck", if you take your time and just start slowly; even NOT engaging any pedals at first; and discover the "gold" this incredible neck has hidden; you may be surprised to learn what sooo many non players have found out since Jerry Byrd created the world's most incredible tuning.

Go for it, but be prepared to triple every frustration you felt learning E9th. But under the hands of a Buddy Emmons or Curley Chalker (and many others), the strings spelled music that could stay up with the best there is in many other genre's of music.

When incorporated into the universal tuning, it melds into a single tuning the 3 all time most popular tunings: A6th, E13th and C6. But oh soooooooooo much more with the advent of pedals and knee levers.

Thank Jesus for inovators like Bud Isaacs, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Pete Drake, Ralph Mooney, Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin. For they have brought to us what Chet Atkins, BB King and Larry Carlton did for the regular guitar. What Earl Scruggs did for bluegrass. As Yasha Heifitz and Itzak Perlman and Marc O'Conner did for the violin; as did Vladimir Horowitz and Floyd Cramer for the piano. And all the great innovator musicians, who were not content to live off of the "status quo",

carl

*Note: it is my understanding that the word "retunion" was coined by two of Atlanta's country music stalwarts; Mac Atcheson and Chuck Atha.

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 04 July 2004 at 09:25 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 04 July 2004 at 09:29 AM.]

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 4 Jul 2004 9:06 am

I am very pleased at the response this thread has generated in such a short time and I would thank all for your input.
Carl,
I have followed many of your postings with interest and I now take this opportunity of commending you on your knowledge and ability to pass this on to others in such an articulate manner,I really do appreciate your comments and look forward to seeing your name appearing on the Forum.

Best regards Billy

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Jul 2004 12:43 pm

I wanted more C6 strings than just the 6 on my Supro.
I started looking at D-8s and triple 8s and finally realized I could get an S-10 with pedals for about the same money.
It of course would have been an E9 and I would have changed it around to a C6.

But I stumbled across a D-10 Sho-Bud 8+6 for the right price and grabbed it, even though I really didn't care if I had a E9 neck.

I did scores of hours of C6 stuff before I ever seriously looked at the E9. When I finally did, it seemed quite limited to my perspective.

But I did work with it. After a time I saw it's usefullness, but at that point I saw a different set of limitations, realtively, for the C6 neck too.

After a period of analysis of both necks in relation to the music theory I wanted to be using in practice, I added 2 more C6 levers and several different, less standard changes, to both necks.

Now I still want one lever more on each, but I have found, for me, a increase in practical power on both necks.

As b0b would say the E9 neck is for making money and the C6 neck is for having fun. And for much of the steel world this holds true.
But my 1st paid recording was 80% C6 and 20% E9. So go figure.

It really depends on the type of songs the band is doing and how you hear it.

So I am glad I have the E9 neck, but if it wasn't attached to the C6er I would likely not have gotten it.

So when you say "should I try C6", it's simple yes sirree.
It is the roots of steeling. The foundation.

If you listen to Jerry Byrd, you can hear increadible melody work and subtle fills, then listen to Big E and hear the shear power that's there.

But I don't think it can have all it's possible functionality with out 3 left knee levers. LKL, LKV, and LKR.
It will still give you MONTHS to DECADES of learning FUN with the standard 5 pedals and 2 RK levers. But add those other 3 and it really opens up.

Doug Jernigan can do marvels with just 5 n 2 and of course BE tears it up with 5 n 4
But add those other 3 and it really opens up. For me anyways.

Next project is a U-12 combining what I like most of both necks, but keeping my D-10[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 July 2004 at 01:48 PM.]

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 4 Jul 2004 1:33 pm

Carl Dixon detailed it pretty well......but I see it in a slightly different way.

Those of you that have elected to tackle the E9th tuning and/or U=12 or U=14 as your initial challenge.........have in fact, IMHO, chosen to take on the toughest tuning of all. Compared to that.....the C6th with all of its benefits and sounds, is so easy and should be a part of everyone's basics for playing steel guitar.

C6th should prove to be as easy as hop scotch for you mental giants. Give it a try and stop trying to compare the two. The ain't![This message was edited by Ray Montee on 04 July 2004 at 02:34 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Jul 2004 3:38 pm

Ray-I tend to agree with your post. I find that playing C6 or E6(same thing) is easy for me, but playing Good E9 is harder.

They are Two different tunings, as you say, "They aint the same"......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Post by **b0b** » 5 Jul 2004 10:34 am

As b0b would say the E9 neck is for making money and the C6 neck is for having fun. And for much of the steel world this holds true.

I have heard that, but I don't think I ever said it. Certainly in Texas the C6th is as much of a "money neck" as the E9th. Consider Herb Steiner or Bert Rivera. These guys don't go to the E9th without a good reason - their first instinct is always to play it on C6th.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Jul 2004 11:27 am

Billy
If you want a new adventure, learn some chops and chords that are not usually found on the E9, by all means start messing around on the "two-week" neck.

As in "two weeks notice."

Yes, in Texas C6 is a most accepted tuning by the public and the other musicians. Knowing C6 here is a professional plus.

Though I don't presume to speak for my friend Bert Rivera, I'd comment on what b0b alluded to regarding my own choice of tunings.

For about the last 15 years I've been playing exclusively very "traditional" country music with those types of artists, meaning no current cover-type music. My choice of tuning on a particular song... and I will frequently play BOTH tunings in one performance of a song... is based on several factors, the relative importance of each changes night to night. Like if I'm bored on the gig, want to experiment, a string breaks, or one particular pedal or string is giving me intonation grief. But my choice is most often based on 1) the way I want to communicate with the audience, and with the vocalist, and 2) whether I want to recreate a song's particular "traditional" sound, or change the musical genre of the song.

Easy example: I can play "Silver Wings" on E9 and give it a very traditional "corn" sound, or I can play fat extended chords on C6 and, with the bass player picking up on the changes, give it a more "western Vegas jazz" sound, a la Chalker. And if I feel really bizarre

, I could play it super "ting-a-ling" like Little Roy Wiggens.

A song like "It's Such A Pretty World" is most definitely an E9 song to me and I wouldn't want to desecrate it (

) by making everyone "C sick."

Some songs from the 1950's work equally well in either format, since they stylistically sit on the fence. Example: "My Shoes Keep Walking Back To You" is a Bob Wills western swing song that Jimmy Day transformed into an E9 song with Ray Price. In a situation like that, the choice of tuning reveals what era the player wants to recreate.

With Johnny Bush, I want to keep the sound or the feel like JB's recordings, so I will play 80-90% E9 on his shows, and frequently play note-for-note solos. I'll play C6 on the western swing tunes and the hoedowns generally, but on his hits, E9.

With James Hand, alternatively, the original tunes we do are a blank palette and so I have the freedom to make the song sound like a tune from the 40's, or a tune from the 70's or any decade in between. James is a generally hardcore traditionalist who like simple, expressive melodic playing, regardless of neck.

That's what I do. Others use their own equally valid criteria for their choices.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 July 2004 at 12:32 PM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 July 2004 at 12:33 PM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 July 2004 at 01:10 PM.]

Charles Tilley · Post by **Charles Tilley** » 5 Jul 2004 11:47 am

That's what I do. Others use their own equally valid criteria for their choices.

That's what Mr. Herb Steiner said.

Here's what I say::::::::::::::::::

HERB, YOU PLAY ANYTHING GREAT NO MATTER WHAT SONG OR WHAT ERA.

YOU ARE A PICKIN' DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Charles Tilley ,
ETSGA Program Director
Bullard, Texas
1994 Carter D-10,1973 MSA D-10 Classic, RV3, Nashville 400 and Evans SE200

Charles Turpin · Post by **Charles Turpin** » 5 Jul 2004 4:01 pm

Bill when you make a decision like this you want to consider just how far you want to advance your knowledge of the guitar. Where as a Universal E9/B6 set up the Emmons way. The two tunings connect. I Played Universal for 15 years. The only difference between the two settings the D10 and Single 12 is holding the knee lever and playing one fret higher and 2 string closer to you. This will give you the same tuning as the C6th neck and the pedals are calculated to where they are the same as the C6th changes only like i said , one fret higher and two strings up. Plus if you have the Eb second string drop a full fret. With the bar on the first fret you have the G as a first string note on the first string and the D note on the 2nd string. They are usually about a 1000 dollars cheaper than the double neck. But on the second hand if you want to keep building your knowledge , you got to remember that underneath the guitar you only have so much room to add more knee levers and pedals. I have went to the D10 cause of furthering my knowledge on it.So once you get the Universal you are not going to add but just so many more levers and pedals cause there isnt room. ,where on the D10 you can add a lot more changes.So if i just wanted to further my education about the C6th style of playing i would go to the universal guitar first then if you didnt like it you could always trade it for a D10.

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David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 7 Jul 2004 3:27 am

Might I suggest picking up an inexpensive single neck and setting it up with the C6 tuning.This will be far less costly than a D-10, or modifying your SD-10. You really only need 4 pedals and 1 knee for the standard setup,(pedal 4 on a D-10 has become fairly obsolete.) I recently acquired an MSA S-10 that came factory original with 5&4, and I have seen others for sale with that same setup. At a later date, if you decide that the C6 tuning is not for you, the guitar can be reconfigured to E-9 and sold to recover your investment. Hope this helps and good luck.
David

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Jul 2004 7:27 am

Pedal 4 is not anywhere near obsolete. Some people have abandoned it to use the slot for experimental changes, but to many of us it's very useful. There's no other standard way to get that low B, and no better pedal for country licks on the C6th.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Jul 2004 8:33 am

The cheapest thing would be for you to trade your SD10 for a D10 or a universal. Adding a whole C6 neck to your SD10 or buying another S10 E9 and converting it will be more expensive, and you'll spend a lot of frustrating time doing the mechanics, when you could be playing.

Don't write off the universal because of the string spacing. Mine (Zum) has the same spacing as a D10. Although the uni can do 90% of both the E9 and C6 necks, it is really a third tuning in its own right. As mentioned above, it is difficult or impossible to get all the extra knee levers on a uni that you can put on a D10, although with a third middle cluster you can come close. But in return for those few extra knee levers, you get things on a uni that you can't do on a D10 at all. On a uni you get the B6 mode by holding the E lower lever. When you are at the V fret in B6, if you simply release that lever it resolves to the I chord. So unlike C6 and E9, B6 and E9 relate to each other in chord theory. For the few changes you miss without the extra knee levers, you get all of the dozens of chords from the alternate mode available from note to note, plus, you have two extra strings in each mode that are not on a D10. It really is a vast new tuning that you will never fully tap if you simply try to imitate standard E9 and C6 playing.

As for learning C6 (or B6), there is a certain level of playing C6 that is easier than E9. You can get a lot by just learning the I, IV, and V frets and how to get those same chords at the I and II frets using pedal 6 (or the E whole-step lower lever on a uni). You can pretty much play any string, without having to skip over some as you do on E9. You can play an amazing amount of swing and '50s country just using that one pedal and playing C6 like a lap steel. It really is easier to learn than E9. Of course the Buddy Emmons/Curly Chalker, Doug Jernigan jazz stuff is another matter, but so is the top stuff done by the pros on E9.

Swap for a used D10 or a uni with normal string spacing. You will experience a whole new world and never miss your old SD10. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 July 2004 at 09:49 AM.]

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 7 Jul 2004 10:29 am

Hello again everyone,

I would like to say a BIG thank you to all who have given me advice thru the Forum.
Things have moved really fast,I can hardly believe just how fast it has gone.
On Monday I saw an ad for a steel and I have literally just walked thru the door with it.
I now have a Z.B.custom double,8 and 4.
Since I do not have any instruction on this tuning can I ask if there are any recommendations to get me away.
Thanks again
Billy

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 Jul 2004 11:56 am

Billy,

Since it has 8 and 4, I can only assume the following are its copedents:

<pre>
A B C LKL LKR RKL RKR

F# G
D# D/C#
G# A
E F# F Eb
B C# C#
G# A F#
F#
E F Eb
D C#
B C#

4 5 6 7 8 RKL RKR
G G#
E F
C D B
A B B Bb
G F#
E Eb
C C#
A B
F F# E
C D A
</pre>

The above D-10 Copedent IS the standard being shipped from factories; unless told otherwise by the buyer.

As I stated in and earlier post, begin slowly, and don't even use any pedals to start with. IE, simply learn your way around the basic tuning and what it is all about. Play along with some songs you already know well, just finding the I IV and V chords. Using strings 3, 5 and 6.

Then:

1. See if you can pick out the melody (at least a part of it) at those "key" frets.

2. See if you can add just one note of harmony doing the above.

3. Then see if you can find a third note of harmony doing the above.

This will atune your ears to this strange (but oh soooo beautiful tuning). Don't be afraid to experiment at places other than the "key" frets. There is harmony in many places. See if you can find them. Again NO pedals or knee levers yet.

When you feel you have gotten the basic tuning down to at least a "fair" degree, do the following:

1. If you are at the I fret and the music changes to the V7 chord, pick strings 3, 4 and 6, moving up two frets, and engaging the 6th pedal. Hear that beautiful dominant 7th chord kick in. "Nuttin' lack it!"

2. If the music resolves a I chord to a I7 chord, remain at the same fret and pick strings 2, 3 and 5 as you slide down two frets while engaging pedal 5. You can do a V to V7 chord at the V chord "key" fret also using this procedure.

Listen carefully to those sounds. Because they form the rudimentary basic changes on C6. See if you can fit this in to yet other songs you already know. Continue this for a while 'til it becomes automatic.

Then:

1. If you are at the I chord fret and the music goes to a IV chord, move down two frets picking string 2, 3, 4 and 5 (strumming) while engaging pedal 7.

2. Do this also if you are at the IV chord fret and the music changes to a I chord; only this time do not move down two frets, ie, stay right there.

Add this to your bag of "new" tricks. Fit it in to songs you already know. See if you can see and hear the melody (with harmony) as you "grow and wax strong" in this new tuning called C6.

Then:

If you are at the I chord fret (basic tuning) and the music calls for a V7 chord, instead of moving up two frets and engaging the 6th pedal picking strings 3, 4 and 6, move down 2 frets and strum strings 7, 6, 5, and 4 while engaging pedal 8.

Learning this important move will give you TWO ways to approach a V7 chord two frets in either direction from your I chord fret. This will embellish your playing.

Fit this into more songs. Practice just these manuevers, until you have them down pat. Then:

1. If you are at the I chord fret and the music changes to a V chord, instead of moving at all, simply pick strings 3, 5 and 6 and engage RKR, this takes you to the V chord's relative minor for a nice embellishment.

2. If you are at the V chord fret and the music is going to resolve to a V7-I chord, pick string 2, 3 and 4 while you engage the RKL, then engage the 6th pedal as you let off RKL while the strings sustain.

Practice these rudimentary but very basic moves on this tuning and you are "ON your way".

May Jesus bless you in you quests,

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 07 July 2004 at 01:06 PM.]

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 7 Jul 2004 12:14 pm

I'm using a C6 with a "D" on top:

string
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

pitch
D E C A G E C A F C

I started out trying to learn the tuning without using any pedals/levers. The first think I worked on was the basic 1-4-5 chords (no extensions) in a single key.

The next thing I learned was the major scale in 3rds (no pedals/levers) in that same key, from as high to as low as I could play it. In the key of C:

CE, DF, EG, FA, GB, AC, BD, repeat

You may notice that the 1st, 4th & 5th "thirds" of the major scale use major thirds, and the 2nd, 3rd, 6th & 7th 3rds use minor 3rd intervals.

On the C6 tuning, you'll also notice major 3rd intervals are found between strings 2/3; 6/7; 8/9. The minor intervals are found between strings 3/4; 5/6; 7/8.

So, if the major scale 3rds are:

maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, min...repeat

You can alternate between sets of strings that have maj 3rds with pairs that have minor 3rds:

2/3; 3/4; 3/4; 2/3; 2/3; 3/4; 3/4 repeat

Anyway, you can do that on several different combinations of strings. I've been using these maj/min 3rd intervals to play melodies, and to "imply" the full chord. (For example, going from a C chord to a G chord, I'd play C/E, then B/D or G/B.)

Now I'm trying to find chords & pairs of strings that are maj/min 3rds using pedals and levers...but I'm only working on learning one pedal/lever change at a time.

I hope this makes sense. I apologize if you already know this. The best advice I can say is it never hurts to brush up on theory. If you have a D10, it's helping to play two necks instead of just one. More bang for your buck.

Maybe someone more experienced can clarify this post. Good luck & have fun. I know I'm having a blast.
[This message was edited by Steve Knight on 07 July 2004 at 01:17 PM.][This message was edited by Steve Knight on 07 July 2004 at 01:18 PM.]