The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 9:14 am**

In another topic, Howard asked in jest about a single neck crossover. I thought, why not?

Imagine a 12 string tuning. A lock lever would pull all of the strings from E9th to C6th, and transfer all of the pedals and levers from E9th changes to C6th changes.

I made a chart to demonstrate it, as a 5+5 with the standard E9th and C6th changes. The chart is too wide to embed in a Forum message, so click here to see it.

The caveat is that, in addition to the yet-to-be-invented single neck crossover system, you would also need a changer that allows 5 raises on a single string.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 06 June 2004 at 10:20 AM.]

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 9:54 am**

I can hear Carl typing away feverishly...

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 10:23 am**

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 June 2004 at 11:25 AM.]

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 11:12 am**

You think it would weigh more or less than a D12?[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 06 June 2004 at 12:13 PM.]

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 11:19 am**

It would weigh more than the "standard" 8&5 universal, due to the extra hardware and the crossover mechanism itself. The only difference in weight between a SD-12 universal and a D-12, both with 8&5 is the tuning key housing, neck, changer, and strings.

Since this guitar would have the equivalent of a 10&8 D-12 (assuming the right knee levers work both necks), I think the crossover guitar would weigh about the same as a loaded D-12.

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 12:24 pm**

If you change strings once a month, the guitar would pay for itself in about 40 years.

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 12:37 pm**

Yes that would be great,but Epiphone endorsee and steel player Bobby Day had Epiphone make one up for him with the exception that it had 10 strings.

Back then there was little interest.

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 12:38 pm**

There are a lot of factors that figure into weight. It would be heavier than a Newman U-12 because it has more changes, plus the xover parts. I think it would probably be close to a standard D-10 in weight.

I wouldn't have even thought about it, but I'm a fanatic advocate of the ergonomics of 5+5. I tried, but I could never get comfortable with that inside seating position of the C6th.

I have a D-12x on order from Williams (5+5, of course). I'm sure that an S-12x would be lighter than that.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Posted: **6 Jun 2004 5:45 pm**

I know a simpler way of doing that with one lock lever and a E9 tuning and a E6(instead of C6) so all the knee lever will work both ways.It is really very simple. I wonder why no one has published it.

The secret is in the reverse tuning. E6 then the lock for E9,
<pre>
.........lock
F#
D#
G#
E
C#........B
B.........G#
G#........F#
E
C#........D
B
G#
E
</pre>
You could even do it for 10 string guitar. just take off the bottom two strings, you dont have on E9 S10 anyway. But 12 strings is a lot better for many reasons.

There it is you play E6 and lock it in for E9.......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 06 June 2004 at 06:48 PM.]

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 12:19 am**

Hey B0b.You could always take up banjo as they don't have so many strings and are not near as heavy as a thang.Tracy

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 1:09 am**

you would also need a changer that allows 5 raises on a single string.

Excels have such a changer.

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 6:33 am**

Aye Mike. That they do.

Been thinkin' bout how many changes would be necessary to change the open 12 string tuning from E9th to C6th. That is a heap b0b. I am wondering if a standard lock lever wouldn't be extremely difficult to move trying to pull that many strings.

Also, keep in mind that the LOK would use one changer hole for each string that is changed when it is activated.

What about the following instead? NOTE: it would only use 3* changer holes, ie, strings 2, 9 and 10:

E9th

<pre>

LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 RKL RKR

F# G#
D# E D/C#
G# G A
E F D# F#
B A# C# C# A
G# G A F#
F#
E F D# F#
D C#
B A# C# A
E F
B A
</pre>

B6th

<pre>

LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 RKL RKR

F# G
C#* D
G# G A
D# D E
B C# A# C
G# G A A# A#
F# F
D# E D
B* C C
G#* A#
E F D#
B C# G#
</pre>

Whatcha think pahdnah?

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 07 June 2004 at 07:40 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 07 June 2004 at 07:46 AM.][This message was edited by C Dixon on 07 June 2004 at 04:34 PM.]

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 8:35 am**

You are right of course, Carl, but there are ways to design a lock lever that isn't too stiff, and there are ways to design a changer specifically to accomodate the crossover concept. You can look at a single neck xover as an add-on to existing mechanical designs, or you can start from scratch with xover as one of the initial requirements of the design.

One of the main objections to the Newman Universal from the D-10 crowd is that the C6th "side" is played from a B6th. Songs with open strings end up in odd keys, and all of the instructional material must be transposed. U-12 players have a hard time "talking C6th" with other C6th players.

Even with this crossover, there's still a symantic hurdle. When a C6th play talks about his 4th string, the 12-string player needs to know that he's talking about the A string, which is actually the 6th string on a U-12. I wish that C6th players would use a string's name instead of its number.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 07 June 2004 at 12:32 PM.]

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 1:22 pm**

Carl, you have figured a good way to have a lock and go from E9 to B6. Which gets there in a different way than the now called Universal E9/B6.

What I was suggesting, was Being in the Key of E whether the lock was on or off.

That way all the bar positions would be the same wether E9 or E6. As far as all the lessons and tab goes, It should be easy to transpose , after a learning period.

Not recommended for top Pros or old timers, but for the new young steelers coming on. As mentioned on this Forum, a newbe is confused by the C6 neck or the B6 universal.

I like to see all these discussions on tunings, It sure makes it interesting to see all the ideas that we come up with...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 1:47 pm**

I don't think that E6th is a good idea for beginners because all of the instructional material is C6th.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 2:07 pm**

Didn't Sho Bud make a crosover mechanism once upon a time? I remember it being called the "Georgia Overdrive" lever.
Also didn't Ernie Hagar use a A6 tuning that started out (open)like E9 with A and B down, allowing some of the voicings available on C6? Anyone know about Ernie's copedent?

-Peter

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 2:19 pm**

Yes, Sho-Bud made a double neck crossover. Williams currently makes one - I bought the first one, and have another on order right now.

But this is a different idea - a single neck crossover. Maybe it's just a wacky idea.

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 4:00 pm**

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 6:38 pm**

I had contacted Williams about building a U-12 crossover (as I was selling my D-10 crossover) and he said not enough room for the mechanism.

Posted: **7 Jun 2004 7:34 pm**

Scott,

I agree.

One of the problems with ANY crossover ass'y is the required amount of room to install all the switchover mechanisms. And on most stock systems; be it a single or double neck; space is it at a premium; and in some cases there simply is NO space left. Such is the case you speak of.

I wanted to convert my Emmons' LeGrande D-10 to a 6 X 6 crossover. I tried every way to make it work, but there was simply NOT enough room. I even tried to make 2 of the 6 pedals fixed, ie, only crossover 4 of the pedals; still not enough room.

carl

Posted: **8 Jun 2004 4:22 am**

I bought a MSA D-12 from Herby last month and am in the process of building it my way. I have limited mobility and the crossover was great but I just couldn't get used to the 2 tunings and feel I do better with a universal.
I have decided to make it a universal on the double frame with 6 pedals (A B C 8 5 6)
and everything else on knee levrs. Pedal 7 will be on a knee lever.(I bought the Sierra course and Bill Stafford has pedal 7 on a knee lever)
I really liked the crossover idea and with a double body you mike could make it work. The problem woul be not enough demand and with going to the double body weight saving would be minimal if any.
[This message was edited by Scott Howard on 08 June 2004 at 11:08 AM.]

Posted: **10 Jun 2004 9:41 pm**

Hey Bobby
Do you have any pictures of the old Sho-Bud crossover guitars?Is the Williams designed the same way?I always wanted to see one of these guitars.Thanks
Phillip

Posted: **11 Jun 2004 6:36 am**

The Williams mechanism works very differently from the old Sho-Buds. The lever is under the guitar, and it rotates a rod that travels the full length of the guitar.
<center>

</center>

Posted: **11 Jun 2004 8:09 am**

Bobby-Your Williams Crossover is really the answer, as far as I can see. It is beautiful too.I can see where you sit in one position and hardly have to move your feet or twist to get 8 or 9 knee levers going etc...

Scott-You have a good setup for your tuning. ABC856. is all you need with the rest on knee levers. I like the pedal 7 on a Knee as Bill Stafford has. You never have to take your foot off the volume pedal with that setup.......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Posted: **11 Jun 2004 10:01 am**

The workmanship of the Williams "crossover" appears superb to my eyes when viewing the photos. I would just love to see one up close.

I do have one slight assessment that I believe is happening. b0b, correct me if I am wrong, but is the following true?

The pedal rods appear to activate a (idler) crossrod that has no bellcranks on it. Rather, this crossrod is used to transfer pulling power to either a second E9th crossbar (or C6 crossbar), WITH the changer bellcranks insalled on them instead.

If I am correct, this limits the amount of crossrods a given PSG can have. I have thought about this for years. There is a way to eliminate this additional crossrod. This frees up precious space for adding pedals and knee levers each with a crossover mechanism itself.

If the answer is yes, I am going to give Bill Rudolph a call; because IF he could make it work, it would truly be a handy embellishment of an already high quality mechanism. Besides he is one of the nicest persons I have ever spoken to. So I would just enjoy the rhetoric.

He may tell me, "carl good buddy, your idea won't work

" Coming from him I would higly respect it.

carl

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Single Neck Crossover

Single Neck Crossover