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Topic: resurrecting theory talk in tablature section... |
Kiyoshi Osawa
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2004 4:54 pm |
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Well Kiyoshi,
I will get boiled in oil for this, but I was taught by a juliard graduate that there is NO such thing as a 6th chord. And even though I have used the term C6th for over 55 yrs, in my heart I refer to it as Aminor7.
Using that "thesis" as a base, one does not have to double flat a 7th to get "C6th". They simply have to flat the 3rd of an A7th chord. In fact, it may be this fact that lead to my teachers' teaching. And your observations. Who knows?
Gotta run quick and find my flamesuit. Any body seen b0b around, I am skeerd. I need a place to hide, cuz I KNOW he's gonna zing me 
carl |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2004 7:45 pm
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If the bass player plays a A and E under the C6th chord, it's an Am7th. If he plays C and G it's certainly a C6th, no matter what they teach in Julliard.
Zing!  |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 17 Jun 2004 1:34 am
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Kiyoshi, there is no such thing as a "minor dominant 7th" chord. All 7th chords are 4-note chords. The 5 most common forms of 7th chord are Major 7th, dominant 7th, minor 7th, minor 7 flat 5 (m7b5), and diminished 7th. To form them, you take the major scale notes as follows.
Major 7th - 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7th - 1,3,5,7b
Minor 7th - 1,3b,5,7b
minor 7 flat 5 (a.k.a. half-diminished) - 1,3b,5b,7b
diminished 7th - 1,3b,5b,7bb
Examples: a C major scale is C,D,E,F,G,A,B
Since a C major 7th (Cmaj7) is 1,3,5,7, the notes are C,E,G,B.
Since a C dominant 7 (C7) is 1,3,5,7b, the notes are C,E,G,Bb.
And a C minor 7 (Cm7) is 1,3b,5,7b, so the notes are C,Eb,G,Bb.
And so on...
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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Kiyoshi Osawa
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Jun 2004 7:05 am
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Jeff,
the first thing I realized was precisely that, that there was no way to make a minor chord a "dominant" 7th. But What I'm looking for is a chord that will function the way the dominant does, having that tritone interval there, and resolving nicely up a perfect 5th, but in a minor key.
So this is what I'm asking. Would the m6 chord, which if my calculations are correct includes a tritone interval, be a logical equivalent?
... Well, I just tried the chords on a piano. Actually it doesn't resolve that nicely from V to I, but it does from a vi to a I !! I guess it makes sense, since the tritone in the vi m6 chord is the same distance as the Dominant 7th!!!
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Kiyoshi
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Kiyoshi Osawa
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Jun 2004 7:26 am
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carl,
Whatever you want to call it, it sounds good. At least the way it's used in western swing. But since finding that chord all over the fretboard has been easy now that I have a universal, I'm trying to figure out how to use it, other than just adding that Maj6th interval to any chord I happen to land on, you know what I mean?
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Kiyoshi
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Mike Delaney
From:
Fort Madison, IA
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Posted 22 Jun 2004 12:26 pm
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Kiyoshi-
I think what you're looking at is a minor 6 chord, but hearing a dominant 7 chord. The reason for this is a minor 6 has the same notes as the top four of a dominant 9 chord a fourth higher. In other words, Gmin6 has the notes G,Bb,D,and E. A C9 chord has the notes C,E,G,Bb,and D.
If you play Gmin7, voiced F,Bb,D,G followed by a C9 voiced E,Bb,D,G it will sound like you have just played a iimin7 V7 progression in F. Hope this helps. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2004 3:47 pm
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| "you know what I mean?" |
Indeed I do Kiyoshi. Western swing type playing relies heavily on the minor 7th chord. And you are correct that these chords can be found all over the neck on the standard universal-12 PSG.
In fact the E lever converts one spelling (A and B down) of a minor 7th to another spelling (A and B up).
Also on a universal, IF the E lever is in the "B6" mode, the 7th pedal converts the spelling to yet another spelling of a minor 7th chord. And this pedal was created (IMO) by one of the world's finest western swing players, IE, the late and great Bob White.
So if one plays a standard U-12, having the option of pedals A and B, E alone or E and the 7th pedal, they have a great choice of minor 7ths all over the neck which proves your comment to be correct.
Now, which one does one use at any given instant of time, you will have to ask someone other than me. I could never play western swing if my life depended on it. I use all the above chords, but I use them exclusively to play like I perceive Jerry Byrd would have used them had he gone to pedals.
Good luck to you always,
carl |
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