The Steel Guitar Forum

Do you know any, do you use it, do you find it useful, necessary or worthless ?

all comments accepted and approved by me, in advance .

I tried to give as many poll choices as possible .

Of course I have advanced theoretical knowledge. I also know that 4 out of 5 Americans consider themselves a "better than average" driver. And 73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

There are plenty of successful players who have found no use for theory and understandably yawn when it crops up. But they must have started young enough to learn their way around by trial and error. I could not have made good progress in a short time at my age (62 when I started) if I had not been clued up in the theory department.

And we should all aspire to Todd's level of self-awareness.

Ian interesting, but is it possible that those who believe they are not playing from a theoretical position actually are and just don't realize it or maybe don't want to accept it.

I played for years with what I refer to as a real minimal skill set, maybe less. Then one time, years later, I went to a guitar Guru when I lived up in Ct, wanting to advance, improve whatever. After a few sit downs and telling Link ( Chamberlain) I had no theory background, he went backwards and showed me how much I actually knew. He put me in the category of "you just figured it out and learned it" .

THAT was a turning point for me, as from that point on I started looking at things with a different perspective. I know enough to be considered dangerous !

And I don't yawn !

I took one music theory class in college and thought it wasn't for me...

These days though, I find myself thinking about it all the time. I find myself reading and thinking about theory when I should be doing other stuff. Expanding my music (theory) knowledge has become my primary manner of procrastination. It helps me avoid my other responsibilities, yet still makes me feel good about myself

Link Chamberlain was a great musician.

I learned music theory on my own in grade school wnd advanced it to being able to write and transpose string and horn parts in high school. My ear was already good, but I had a hard time understanding what was going on in jazz, probably because some of the first jazz I listened to was 1960s Miles with Herbie and Wayne.

No amount of understanding what scales to play over certain chords can make you a legit jazz player. The language of the music has to be learned. I would not classify that as theory--theory is what you use after the fact to analyze the music. That analysis can guide your future playing.

Tony Prior wrote:I tried to give as many poll choices as possible .

You left out "Yes, and people who talk about theory make me sick."

Earnest Bovine wrote:

Tony Prior wrote:I tried to give as many poll choices as possible .

You left out "Yes, and people who talk about theory make me sick."

Ok, ! And thats why all comments are approved ahead of time !

I've asked this before, in fact several times, and always been ignored. Is there any player on the first call list for studio work that does not have a command of music theory ??? Is there any player on a number one hit song that can't talk theory ??

Tony sez:

... is it possible that those who believe they are not playing from a theoretical position actually are and just don't realize it or maybe don't want to accept it

I've postulated something similar for years. I think a lot of pros and longtime players have developed an ear for what "works" and for copying licks and ideas from recordings, and have it categorized in some manner, just not using a nomenclature others might call "theory".

For example, I was talking with Smoking hot Cincinnati guitarist Scotty Anderson at a NAMM show about his use of diminished patterns and how he connects other phrases with them. He looked at me blankly and said something like "I don't have any idea what I'm doing- I just take a lick I know, and think about where it will fit, and put it there." Even a rudimentary listen to his playing evinces a long study of swing and jazz phrasing, lots of Django and Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, all sewn together in a very credible way from a theory standpoint. He may not know what to call the substitutions and arpeggios he uses but he sure can play 'em. He does have a teaching video out that references theory to more of a degree than many.

I always think the question is, if any theory knowledge and application shortens practice and "hunting" time, gives you more "ammunition" and lots more fun by knowing your way around at least a bit better, why wouldn't everyone want to study, at least somewhat?

Mark van Allen sez...

Mark van Allen wrote: I always think the question is, if any theory knowledge and application shortens practice and "hunting" time, gives you more "ammunition" and lots more fun by knowing your way around at least a bit better, why wouldn't everyone want to study, at least somewhat?

I think thats the point. I doubt there are any clubs where people meet and sit around drinking coffee saying things like Eb Major or G13 or E9th add 5 , perhaps..but probably not.

We often read counter positions to knowing any or learning any theory, but from where I sit, if we are on a band stand or at a jam and someone looks at you and says, key of G, kick it to the 5..and you do...well ?

To my way of very simplistic thinking a minimum knowledge of 1's, 2's, 3's 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7th's isn't brain science.It's a numbers system based on theoretical relationships to a root chord ( 1) . Then we have those that say C6th and freak out !

My guess would be that if a session player in Nashville doesn't understand the pretty simplistic numbers system , then they don't get many calls to do sessions. They are not playing Carnegie Hall, they are playing songs with mostly 3 or 4 chords but understanding the relationship would be a mandatory element.


It's also highly possible that those who are struggling with even minimal theory understanding were given instruction by someone who knew less than them .

Ian Rae wrote:There are plenty of successful players who have found no use for theory and understandably yawn when it crops up.

and then

Tony Prior wrote: Is it possible that those who believe they are not playing from a theoretical position actually are?

I guess so. They must be ordering their musical thoughts somehow, just not in a way that others would recognise.

Mike Neer wrote:I had a hard time understanding what was going on in jazz, probably because some of the first jazz I listened to was 1960s Miles with Herbie and Wayne.

It was those guys who seemed to be playing outside the lines of theory that made me want to learn what they were doing, particularly Herbie.

I can't imagine anyone who can play something without knowing what goes on in theory at some level, consciously or unconsciously.

Charlie McDonald wrote: I can't imagine anyone who can play something without knowing what goes on in theory at some level, consciously or unconsciously.

That would be my take as well, even if we just knew I,IV and V relationships.

Although, I have indeed played behind many singers who played acoustic guitar that did not know the I,IV ,V relationships. They knew which chords went together, like C,F and G, but were mystified with any theoretical relationship. BUT, the fact that they knew those chords went with each other is a form of theory , no ?

What if someone sat down with them for 5 min and said, the first Chord C, is 1, the second chord F is 4 and the third chord G , is 5 and showed them how that was derived ? then showed the same thing in 3 or 4 different keys. It's not like we have to count past 5 !

Anything that helps you understand what you're doing, as well as what others are doing, will be quite helpful. While you don't need a ton of theory to make good music, a basic understanding of rhythm, chords, and melody is almost a given. It is not an end unto itself, however, as knowing all the ingredients does not necessarily make one a good cook. Of course, you also need emotion and creativity in what you do, for music is nothing but a form of personal expression.

One other thing that I think can also be helpful is an appreciation for different forms and styles of music. This variety adds depth and dimension to the music we play, and helps us to communicate with a larger and more diverse audience.

When I teach in the 1st lesson I use a piano to demonstrate basic music theory- ie.- how you turn a major into a relative minor, then into a 4 chord, then to a sus4, then into a 57 all the time just showing the notes as numbers and then explaining that the A pedal is simply taking the 5 to a 6, the B pedal taking the 3 to a 4, etc and making it visually simple and at the same time familiarizing the student with the number system because to me- just the word "theory" used to turn me off but in music the basics are really quite simple and a knowledge of it really helps the learning process.

nice approach Jim...

The common language for all music played on any instrument.







C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

I'll never forget this from music class in grade school

Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge

and

FACE


Do they still have music class in public schools ?

Music theory is really good, if that's the way you want to learn music. But I think that a musician that has to read notes from a music sheet to play a song. is really handicapped if they cannot play by ear. I don't know of any steel guitar player, includeing the top players today, that could tell you every note they are playing while playing a instrumental. Willie SIMS

Tony Prior wrote:Mark van Allen sez...

Mark van Allen wrote: I always think the question is, if any theory knowledge and application shortens practice and "hunting" time, gives you more "ammunition" and lots more fun by knowing your way around at least a bit better, why wouldn't everyone want to study, at least somewhat?

I think thats the point. I doubt there are any clubs where people meet and sit around drinking coffee saying things like Eb Major or G13 or E9th add 5 , perhaps..but probably not.

We often read counter positions to knowing any or learning any theory, but from where I sit, if we are on a band stand or at a jam and someone looks at you and says, key of G, kick it to the 5..and you do...well ?

To my way of very simplistic thinking a minimum knowledge of 1's, 2's, 3's 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7th's isn't brain science.It's a numbers system based on theoretical relationships to a root chord ( 1) . Then we have those that say C6th and freak out !

My guess would be that if a session player in Nashville doesn't understand the pretty simplistic numbers system , then they don't get many calls to do sessions. They are not playing Carnegie Hall, they are playing songs with mostly 3 or 4 chords but understanding the relationship would be a mandatory element.


It’s also highly possible that those who are struggling with even minimal theory understanding were given instruction by someone who knew less than them .

I agree with both of these statements... I have Marks course on Theory and think it’s REALLY good and would be a benefit to me if only I were a better student... Sadly I’m the WORST... I’ve got gobs of Tab from Days Gone By, but learning like that doesn’t seem to connect with me very well... For the most part I think I know what chord I’m playing, if I stop to think about it... I like the idea and would like to be able to say, “Thats a b5minor7th... whatever that is, but a rose by any other name right?... I seem to see things more in terms of patterns and positions, though never as well as I’d like... I’ve spent a little time trying to teach my Son Bass, and after some frustration tried using Numbers instead of Letters and how they correlate to positions on the neck... that makes more sense to him, when I’m calling out 1, 4, 5, than C, F, G... I’ll call out numbers to him while I’m trying to play the song on steel, and that makes me have to think while I’m playing... that process as it turns out, is also a benefit to me, because I think it helps solidify the relationship in my head... I’m pretty visual, so what I read in a book or hear on a CD, just doesn’t resonate with me like I think a half hour with Mark or Jim Palenscar would... Being shown while I’m sitting at my guitar, I think would do me the most good... Unfortunately I’ve never had that experience.

WC Fields was an expert juggler, but he read a book about juggling and had trouble after that. I have talked with musicians that were fairly accomplished and then went back and studied theory and had trouble playing as well as they played before.

My guess is knowledge of music theory is great if done while the person is learning his musical skills and is used to complement the emotional and intuitive aspects of playing an instrument.

I feel as though my musical 'ear' grasped theory before I did.

I've been working ever since to catch up and I'm sorry now that I didn't learn to read earlier. Others have made this point but I knew more than I thought I did.

I have to play a wide variety of music to make a living - having a poor grip on theory would be too trying.

I like music theory. It's fascinating to me, and it doesn't hurt my playing at all.

Check out my latest theory article:
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What's an 11th Chord?

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Tony Prior wrote:I think thats the point. I doubt there are any clubs where people meet and sit around drinking coffee saying things like Eb Major or G13 or E9th add 5 , perhaps..but probably not.

People don't say things like that socially, but they do in rehearsals. More importantly, they think them in jam sessions, where the social communication is more like mental telepathy. My friends and I are all following the same chart, saying the chords with our instruments. Except for the drummer, who is counting time in a way that is beyond my comprehension - another form of music theory.

Willie Sims wrote:Music theory is really good, if that's the way you want to learn music. But I think that a musician that has to read notes from a music sheet to play a song. is really handicapped if they cannot play by ear. I don't know of any steel guitar player, includeing the top players today, that could tell you every note they are playing while playing a instrumental. Willie SIMS

That's nuts. Of course, I can name every note I play. But when I'm playing, I am not thinking about music theory as much as I am listening and reacting both to the music around me and the music inside my head.

Don't hold back, Mike.

Mark van Allen wrote:... why wouldn't everyone want to study, at least somewhat?

I'd like to know that. Early memory of theory and ear training paints it as painless. With less stuff on our brains, we soaked it up I guess.

I think somewhere it got a bad name, like intelligence or knowledge, when it's a great tool.
I think more of us use it than we know.
I think more of us also use our ears to play than we realize.

James Sission wrote: Is there any player on a number one hit song that can't talk theory ??

I wondered about the Beatles early on. Did they merely know the chords, or were they learning theory?
All My Loving has 6 or so, arranged in a logical way. Could they have talked theory in those days?
I don't know.