The Steel Guitar Forum

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Little back story:
About three years ago, I bought me my first pedal steel. Knowing very little, I purchased, sight unseen, a very loaded 1976ish MSA D-12. Fortunately, it arrived in good condition with most of its pieces. Ext. E9 worked well enough to play, but the C6 wasn't exactly pristine. On top of this, no documentation (read copedent) came with it. Naturally, I broke a few strings trying to get it up to pitch. After trying to find a "standard" 12 string C6 copedent on the forum, I decided to put the C6 on the back-burner, so to speak.
After two years or so on the E9, I got a new job that wore me out everyday, and I found my guitar holding more laundry than musical inspiration. Into the case it went, into the closet. Fast forward to last month, I decided that having a PSG is no good if you don't play it.

I've been reading over old posts on tearing down changers, and am a few days away from starting this daunting task. Much of the advice I read said to tear it down, and put it exactly how it was. Logic being that after I do that, I'll understand which holes in the bell cranks do what, etc. I've been taking pictures and meticulous notes, and I'm about a week away from being confident enough to get after it.

I have a few questions for those more knowledgeable:

1. Is there a blank 12 string copedent form on the net?
2. Please look at my C6 neck and recommend which strings where, based on the current set up. Also, I found an old post with the former owner of this guitar's name/copedent and wouldn't even know where to start with A6. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 4ffbb99cd2
3. Any easy way in the future to remove obscure C6 pulls and have a more standard E9 emmons knee config?
4. My F lever (LKR), combined with my A pedal in Zero, makes for a damn awkward left leg motion. If I were 6'5" it might be okay, but I'm only 5'11".
5. Anyone in Southwest Missourah interested in helping?

Some photos:













More pictures available, and it has ten floors (first 3 strictly e9) and 6 knees with two lkv's)
Thanks in advance-
-toddler

Welcome, Todd.
Let me be the first to direct you to the Search function at the top of the page. I use it a lot. However, this time
I entered 'blank copedent chart' and didn't find anything, then Googled it and found a link to The Pedal Steel Pages by our fearless leader b0b.
Go to the LINKS at the top of the page, click Copedents; at the bottom of the drop-down you'll find several forms, including a spreadsheet.
There are also quite a few copedents on the Pedal Steel Pages. Make notes of the undercarriage connections you have before you tear it down.

Boy is that guitar loaded. Good luck, hope you post your success with it, and a picture of how she looks.
I had a mid-70's D-12 converted to SD. Loved it.

Cool two verticals. I wouldn't change anything there. Looks like a factory setup. I would have the pulls cleaned and lubed.

I am a big MSA fan on me if you need any help.

I was so excited to join up, I forgot a few things...
Thanks Charlie...



This is the one I have no idea about. I hear of a D and a G both high, on a 12. I know of boowah from C to A. Maybe a low F. What strings would you put on this C6?
More than happy to send a case of beer to the correctist answer...



E9 for posterity.

Here's a link to a manual, might be of some help but it doesn't show what to do with the additional pedals and levers.

http://www.steelguitar.com/manuals/MSA_OwnersManual.pdf

Not sure if you saw my posts but I have the opposite problem - the MSA D12 that I am resurrecting came to me missing the legs, pedals, pedal rods, ect. I've got just about everything now except I've only come up with 4 pedals so far, so I'm converting to an SD12 for now, while I learn to play and until I find a lot more pedals.
Good luck, it will be interesting to compare notes and photos as our projects progress. (Mine is competing with an extensive 'honey do' list )

Old MSA's with round crossrods are probably one of the hardest steels to work on, Deane. My advice: if you don't need a D-12, sell it, and get a more modern D-10. I've owned late 1970's MSA D-10's and D-12's, they're a b*tch to work on since the bell cranks don't pop on and off, as they do on most modern pedal steels.

When I went from my MSA D-12 to a Mullen D-12, I could hardly believe the improved design and ease of changes and mods.

There is one advantage to round cross shafts, being able to get the pulls more in time. I miss them sometimes....

Hi Deane, I thought I knew all the local steel pickers. Why don`t you come to the Tiverton VFW RISGA quarterly meeting on Sunday 2/28 12-4pm at 234 Shove Street. I`d love to meet you. Back to Todd`s thread. I bought a S12 MSA in 1978 loaded with rods, bell cranks etc. I developed a 2 piece T shaped bell crank. The two screw assembly enables easy removal as apposed to the 1 piece L shape bell crank. My two other steels were made using the T shape. If I knew there was a market I would mass produce them.

Thanks for showing up, gentlemen.

Not to get ahead of myself, but since the round crossbars have been mentioned, I have another question. My ABC bellcranks are noticeably angled towards the changer. Is that a 20 year no maintenance thing, or precise timing for the pulls? Basically, when I'm putting it back together, should I loosen them, move them to 90 degrees, and tighten them down, or leave them at the slight angle they are?

The smartest thing I ever did was to turn my MSA S-12 project over to an experienced tech. I learned that you can't put a pedal steel back together like you would a vacuum cleaner and expect it to function properly, there are just too many variables. A pedal steel truly defines the term "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts." I got pretty far with it and learned a lot about the guitar's mechanics, and I guess you could say I reached the point where I knew I was out of my league. You might want to consider having a tech do the final set up and tweaking on your guitar too, I found it was really worth it. Good luck!

So there are two votes for "don't do it." I still don't think I've ever met another steel player in person. Ironically, I live less than an hour from GFI and Doug Earnest both. Shipping this 100 pounder is out of the question. Could anyone recommend a tech in Springfield, MO for final tweaking or "emergency" advice? Also, I've been building my confidence TO do this, and not the other way. Not that your advice falls on deaf ears. I had to learn to change my own oil and restring my own guitars. Might as well learn this one, too...

A crank angled toward the changer is the equivalent of having the rod insert closer to the shaft, slowing the pull.
See (listen) if the timing is right for a dual pull, and if it is, leave it. If not, experiment; nothing to lose.
Everything looks pretty straight up to me. Only the obsessive/compulsive would straighten them more. I know....
Better have the pulls finely tuned.

If you need more than that, an hour's drive isn't much to meet a real steel mechanic. I would.

I never saw a picture of a guitar with a Q lever before.

Thanks, Charlie. That's exactly what I needed to know. And no, not a q lever. A q crossrod.

I've never owned an MSA but I did re-configure an older Sierra guitar with round shafts. I called the previous owner and he offered some good advice (he was a friend of the designer of this guitar).

This is to assure that the bell cranks don't slip on the round axles. It requires removal of the axles roughing up the surface with emory cloth or rough sand paper to give the bell cranks a better surface to grip onto. I clamped the axles into a vice and ran the sandpaper lengthwise, diagonal to the radius to create a coarse surface or grooves for the bell cranks to grip onto. It's a lot of work to take apart the pulling mechanism. But not as complicated as re-building the changer.

I had to completely re-configure the setup so I had all the pulling mechanism out of the guitar--it was just a little more work added to a rather large project.

There's another technique depending on where the set screws are located. It's to file a flat spot on the round shaft so the set screw can't rotate. I did this on an old Sho-Bud guitar but the Sierra's bell cranks are tightened another way. The set screw tightens a clamp onto the shaft and the screw doesn't touch the shaft.

Whatever you do, don't fret that the guitar doesn't have square shafts like modern guitars to. There are plenty of older pedal steels functioning perfectly with the older round axles.

Your "C6?" copedent appears to be a variation of one of Maurice Anderson's Bb6 universal tunings. Go to this link and compare the upper diagram with what you have:

http://b0b.com/tunings/MauriceAnderson.html#Bb6th

The most obvious clue is your P4, which is what David Wright has called the "Anderson pedal" and is not a standard C6 change. Compare P3 in the Anderson copedent.

The left knee configuration is the same as Maurice's except that your LKR has a raise on string 7 whereas Maurice had a whole step lower with a half-stop - I'm not sure why someone would want to raise String 7, so wonder if your diagram is incorrect on this. If you don't have a half stop, the standard change would be a whole step lower. Also you have a raise on string 1 with LKR - it is hard to know what is going on there, as Anderson and others have tried different variations on string 1 including what note it was tuned to.

Compare your P5 to Anderson's P6 - it is a variation on traditional P6 of the C6 tuning, where string 4 is lowered a half step rather than raised a half step. Not sure why you would have a raise on string 11 - maybe should be string 12 like Maurice's?

Anderson's P1 and P2 are your P9 and P10. These are the A and B pedals of the Eb9 tuning you get when you hold RKL, which is the same as Anderson's. In this orientation, your string 1 functions like String 2 of the E9 tuning, and your string 3 functions like string 1 of the E9 Tuning. Probably the most straightforward setup here is to have your string 1 tuned to D (same as D# on E9) and have LKR set up to lower string 1 to Db, like the usual D# to D change on the second string of E9.

Your P6 is similar to Anderson's P5, and functions like traditional P5 on C6. The fact that there is not a raise on string 12 suggests that, as in the Anderson tuning, string 12 is tuned to C rather than Bb.

Your P7 is like Anderson's P7 and function like traditional P7 on C6. Your right knees are the same as Anderson's except you don't have the compensator on RKR.

Not sure about your P8 - could be a raise to E natural which would function like the F lever on E9, in conjunction with your P9.

Interesting that someone would have E9 on one neck and Bb6 universal on another. Maybe it belonged to a Bb6 player who used the E9 neck for teaching?

P.S. After writing all this, I looked at the linked thread about Bob Meadows and his copedents. In one post Al Marcus mentioned that Meadows used Anderson's setup, but with everything lowered a half step so the basic tuning is A6 rather than Bb6.

Bb is where it's at!

John Alexander-
Bingo! Bango! Bongo! You've just solved the mystery. Or most of it. I'm not at my guitar right now, but I'll double check that 7 string raise. I'm going to have to spend a few days comparing the two, but that seems to make more sense than anything else so far. Never would have considered a universal tuning (despite Mr. Anderson's initials on the guitar). PM me your mailing address, and I'd be happy to send you a check for a case of beer...
Three cheers for the forum.
-todd

Todd - Looking again, I see that your P9 and P10 are set up with the "B" to the left of the "A" pedal. That shoots my theory that P8 might be functioning like an F lever in conjunction with P9 - it would have to be double footed with P10 to get that combination, if that's what it's about.

I wasn't suggesting that you not attempt the refurb yourself. You'll learn a heck of a lot by doing so. One thing I wondered, you are heavy on pedals on the C6th, maybe you can move a couple to the (extended) E9th neck. I am happy with my five by five. Just a thought. My tech was way out in the sticks (sorry Bill) but boy was it worth it to have his talent to finish my guitar.

Charlie McDonald wrote:There is one advantage to round cross shafts, being able to get the pulls more in time.

Until they slip.

Looking at your E9 chart, the E raises and lowers should be reversed. You want to have the E-F raise on the LKL so that you don't break your ankle. I would probably change the E9 RKR to drop the D# string to a D and either lower G#, string 6 to F# or raise string 7, F# to G

Update:
Started project. Pull rods out. Changers out. Grime galore. Lessons learned so far:
1. Allen wrenches hurt breaking nuts.
2. Alcohol should be avoided for some tedious work.
3. Coffee should be avoided for precise fine motor work.
4. Surgeons would probably take up golf.
5. I used to think double up/double down might not be enough. Now I envy anyone with less than 30 pull rods.
6. What instrument do you play? I've got a sweet mountain bike.

Good looking advice, Jerry. But as it is, it's hopefully going back as it was. My LKL (E lower) is reasonably comfortable with my AB. Is AB+F more prevalent than AB with Eb? Also, I really like RKR (flatten the third, 3/6). Is that a wasted change?

1) There's an L-shaped gizmo that can shift a change from a neighboring scissor segment, so that the 2&2 limit can be massaged a little bit.
2) If you need more than THAT, you can use old-fashioned Sho-Bud rods and barrels in an MSA guitar so that you can have many pulls on the same rod.

3) It's not so much that you use ABF more than ABD#, but that you'll find a common move going from AB to AF (and back the other way), and also going from AB to BD# (and back. But you'll VERY RARELY need AD# or BF. By very rarely, I mean like fewer than ten times in the 35 years I've been playing these crazy things.

I'm pleased to report that my guitar is back together. Mostly. And tuned up, sorta. Short list of dones (10 days or so):
Pulled and napthanized the pull rods.
Pulled and napthanized both changers.
Scrubbed.
Reassembled changers with 3 in 1.
Wondered if there was any rhyme or reason to various changer spacers/bushings sizes, but reassembled anyway.
Lubed what I could.
Put fifty some rods back in in about four hours.
Crossed my fingers.
Strung them up.
Several tweaks and tight quarter mishaps on output jack.
E9 plays like a dream.
Bb6th Universal is a whole new universe. I cobbled together a set of C6th strings and a few random extras, so it's not an optimal set up, but purpose is served. After this forum determined I had a Bb6 setup, I'd estimate 90% of the issues I had disappeared with changer cleaning. That leaves 10% on a couple of rods and one single leftover little nut that hasn't found it's home yet.

Joining the forum was the best five bucks I've spent. I've torn apart a steel guitar and put it back together. It is in better condition than I received it. It plays as it should (mostly).

I haven't really finished cleaning it or taken photos of the "after" yet, but I am excited about this weird repeating G Bb D F.

Also, do I understand it right that Bb6th has an identical 1st and 4th strings? 'Cause that's how I'm learning it now...

THANK YOU FORUM!

Nylon washer placement for msa changers.
This is the way I did mine. Jim Palenscar advised me on it.


1 nylon spacer in between finger and a companiing scissor.
3 nylon spacers in between adjacent sets of fingers/scissors.
So starting at string one it go like this.

3 washers
scissor
1 washer
Finger

String 2
3 washers
Scissor
1 washer
Finger

Etc
Etc

When you get to string ten and get the last finger on you should end up with 3 washers to keep it away from the changer mounting block.
Best of luck