Not that I need another guitar, but those for-sale ads always beckon me to look at the pics.
As the title notes, it seems like double necks can hang for a while and far outnumber single necks without the decks. Those SD's are plentiful.
Doesn't seem likely that S-10's are just always kept - -do the builders make less of them? Otherwise it would seem that players would be trading them just as much. Does the SD feature appeal that much more?
I would think a major appeal of a single would be that it would travel easier.
Just ramblings...I need a C6-neck because I live in Texas.
I have no information to support my observation, but it seems to me like there are a lot of people starting out on pedal steel lately. Those guys seem to want the S or SD to start out on because the prices seem a little lower than a D10. I play an SD 10 because it seems more comfortable to me being 6 foot 4 and because I don't need a C 6 neck.
Some manufacturers aren't even making S-10's anymore. My guess is that the economics of the SD-10 are better, because you can use a lot of the same parts that you stock for D-10's.
As I've gotten older, I now prefer an S-10 (or S-8!) for the weight. I don't really need a massive instrument to do what's required on the local bandstands.
I asked BILL Rudolph why he stopped making the S10 with the narrow body. His reply was: "the wider body has more room for more knee\pedal hardware".
Geo
I agree with b0b about a single body and lighter weight. Fred Justice built me (What I call)
a U-10 that is basically the U-12 without the 11th & 12th strings. This guitar is a single 10 body with 5 pedals and 6 knee levers.
There is no C pedal and no Boo-wha pedal. I do have a vertical lever that raises string 4 to F#. It gives me a full E9 and a good part of the B6. I still love the U-12 but this guitar is pretty cool.
I'll try to do a video on YouTube soon. Very light guitar in a split case for transport.
Thanks for posting a pic of my S-10 Justice U-10 guitar. I had the guitar setup with the basic Jeff Newman Universal setup as there is no LKR that allows you to get to the last pedal with no obstruction. I lower and raise the E's on my right leg.
The first 8 strings are standard E9. The 9th string is B with a knee lever that raises it to D and the 10th string is a G# that raises to A with the 6th string and 3rd string.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, just wanted to mention how much you can get comfortably into a Single 10 body and expand the the instrument into a very usable B6th vibe.
I now have three single neck guitars and I wouldn't have it any other way because of size and weight. Finding good single neck guitars is not easy since the demand is higher than for double necks. (Al Brisco told me this on my last visit to Steel Guitars of Canada.)
I had two SD guitars (Sho-bud and Fulawka) and one double neck (Fulawka) for more than 25 years. However, as I got into my 70s, carrying and transporting these guitars was difficult, due to both weight and size.
Over the past five years, I sold all three double bodied guitars and replaced them with three good-quality single neck guitars (Sho-Bud, Emmons, GFI). I now gig without killing myself transporting my pedal-steel. My playing has not suffered and neither has my body.
I find it VERY strange that builders don't want to build S10's at a time when many players are moving to small lightweight steels... Seems to make no sense.
Yes S10 guitars always move faster IMHO.. Most players these days simply don't use the C6 neck enough to lug it around...I think the Universal S12 makes the most sense for players that need the "back neck"..
Past few years I have found almost no difference in price on certain brands of used steels between an S10 or a D10.. MSA steels in particular often sell for more money in S10 form.. Buds too. A clean S10 Bud often sells for close to what a D10 sells for.. the demand seems to be higher.. When I mentioned I was thinking about selling my S10 ETS which is tiny and light, but is a 100% pro mechanism, I was inundated with "me first" requests.. Small light, S10 guitars seem to be a quick sell, but the builders won't build them... I can't understand why... bob
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
I find it VERY strange that builders don't want to build S10's at a time when many players are moving to small lightweight steels... Seems to make no sense.
I asked a major PSG builder about this a few years ago. A asked why he did not offer Single Body S-10s? He claimed that buyers prefer SD-10s. He told me that he ordered his bodies from a builder and it was cheaper for him to order a bunch of double bodies and stick a pad on some of them than to order doubles AND singles, and end up with a lot of single bodies that no one wants. So he was blaming it on a lack of demand for single body steels, but I got the impression that it was more about keeping his costs down. I say... if you build it, they will come!
I find it VERY strange that builders don't want to build S10's at a time when many players are moving to small lightweight steels... Seems to make no sense.
I asked a major PSG builder about this a few years ago. A asked why he did not offer Single Body S-10s? He claimed that buyers prefer SD-10s. He told me that he ordered his bodies from a builder and it was cheaper for him to order a bunch of double bodies and stick a pad on some of them than to order doubles AND singles, and end up with a lot of single bodies that no one wants. So he was blaming it on a lack of demand for single body steels, but I got the impression that it was more about keeping his costs down. I say... if you build it, they will come!
Doug.. The explanation you gave is the one I have heard quite often.. Builders say "no one wants" an S 10... I suppose most of the SD 10 or D10 steels they build go to guys that never move them, "stay at home " players, or pro players that have roadies.
Many working pedal steel players these days have downsized and are playing versatile low weight steels, often an S10 with 4 and 5 or more... Look at how fast well priced S10 guitars sell here on the forum, especially if they are small and light like an ETS, GFI Ultra,Carter or a Zum Encore,,, Sold in minutes at times.... bob
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
I am a fan of the S10 configuration. With a light-weight case, it's is a back-friendly solution. My little pony is trained to climb the stairs at the VFW.
OK, I'm kidding. But it's a sound concept.
Actually, with pedal bar/leg pouch in a duffel bag, the guitar body fits perfectly in this box. Hmmmmm.
Using common parts makes sense for if you're building pedal steel guitars. S10-only builders have no parts vs. cabinet size conflict. Great to see the popularity of StageOne and Encore (on my bucket list) steels.
when i got started on steel i knew i would stick with E9
so the S 10 seemed to fit best.
after 8 years i still own 2 GFI S 10 s and see no reason to try something else.
i tried many SD 10 s and although i have no problem playing them i prefer the the space and weight saving S10 concept.
Bobby Snell wrote:I need a C6-neck because I live in Texas.
Made me smile too!
So he's going to stick with the twin anyway. But his question seems to be why there are more SDs around than narrow S10s. This may be because it suits the maker as folks have suugested, but it may suit the player too. The narrower the body the closer the levers are to the pedals, which may not suit everyone. I built my S12 uni on a body not much narrower than a D10, and the ergonomics are just about ok. I would not care for it any narrower.
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
Doug Beaumier wrote:
I asked a major PSG builder about this a few years ago. He told me that he ordered his bodies from a builder and it was cheaper for him to order a bunch of double bodies and stick a pad on some of them than to order doubles AND singles..
wouldn't that make him more of an assembler than a
builder?
it used to be that players aspired to be 'complete' players, but i guess not anymore. i liked my s10 emmons in my early days, but always felt like i would never lose the beginner status until i progressed to a d10 with a c6 neck to round out my capabilities.
of course most of us in the 70s were in awe of the pros, and the pros all had great c6 chops.
a u12 makes sense to me but i don't personally hear anyone around me developing that concept.
??? there are still a few S10's being made, Stage One, GFI's. Maybe not in abundance and maybe not the BRAND you want but none the less. I'm fairly certain that we could ORDER a S10 from probably any of the modern builders, problem is the wait period.
I personally am not a fan of the SD10 body, either do it as a D10 or find a S10 in my mind. SD10's, same case, basically the same weight, never really understood the point, but thats just me.
Two D10's here and a S10 Sho Bud Pro I which will never leave the stable. I bring it out 2 or 3 times each month. It's like carrying a pail of water but empty !
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 8 years
I would much rather CARRY a single 10 guitar, but have never felt comfortable playing one( and my first two were s-10). The angle of my knee and ankle over the volume pedal, the position of the knee levers....I even feel a difference between my Carter SD-10 with its compact body vs. the larger Rains D-10, finding the Rains' pedal bar an inch or so farther away from my seated position making for more accurate control of my volume. The down side is the Rains in its case is very heavy, almost twin reverb heavy.
b0b wrote:Ergonomics is key to playing well. If the guitar doesn't fit your body well, you will not play your best.
True. I am a decent size guy around 6 foot and 220 or so.. a tiny S10 has more than enough room for me and always has. I could never understand the need for a double size body raised 2 inches for guys my size or an inch or so taller.. I guess there are a lot of 6'4 steel players out there..
I have always felt very uncomfortable "reaching over" a C6 neck or a pad. As you said You don't play well when the guitar doesn't fit. D10 size steels never fit me.. To each his own..... bob
Last edited by Bob Carlucci on 2 Jan 2016 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
I'm another single-neck guy, and for me it's not just the weight of a D or SD that I don't like, but the fact that they feel uncomfortable to me. But that's because I've been playing nothing but single neck steels for 42 years. For that very reason I understand how someone who is used to a double-wide could feel uncomfortable playing a dinky single, even with ergo concerns aside.
I'm just glad some builders still make S-10s. And since the S-10 is perhaps the most likely choice for a first-time buyer, having good single-neck choices probably helps encourage new players into the fold.
One thing that puzzles me a little, with all the new small lightweight "flyable" steels coming out, is why there aren't more keyless choices, which could be even smaller and lighter. I can't think of any offhand except Williams and GFI (Aero and Ultra) but I may be forgetting some.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like so many buy a double neck pedal steel for the testosterone value- that is, it looks really cool whether the 2nd neck gets played or not. I guess I was guilty of that in the 70s- bought a double neck, played for 10 years and never really learned much C6th. Maybe that was the reason I chucked the entire instrument for decades.
I'm thrilled with my single twelve. I understand the reasoning that the SD10 has more room for pedals, levers and such underneath. I think the pad on the SD is useless. I'm a hobbyist as opposed to a working player so my opinions might not hold as much weight but I have been involved in the steel community since 1969 I guess.
Bruce Derr wrote:
One thing that puzzles me a little, with all the new small lightweight "flyable" steels coming out, is why there aren't more keyless choices, which could be even smaller and lighter. I can't think of any offhand except Williams and GFI (Aero and Ultra) but I may be forgetting some.
chuck lemasters wrote:I would much rather CARRY a single 10 guitar, but have never felt comfortable playing one( and my first two were s-10). The angle of my knee and ankle over the volume pedal, the position of the knee levers....I even feel a difference between my Carter SD-10 with its compact body vs. the larger Rains D-10, finding the Rains' pedal bar an inch or so farther away from my seated position making for more accurate control of my volume. The down side is the Rains in its case is very heavy, almost twin reverb heavy.
The lateral relationship between the pedal bar and the E9 neck, the relative position of your hands and your feet, is the same on a D10 as on an S10. The thing that is usually different is the relative position of the knee levers, though on some D10s they're pretty far under the guitar. I think I sit in basically the same position relative to the pedals and E9 neck with either configuration, meaning not too close on my main guitar, which is an S10. The comfort/discomfort thing for me is, as many others have said here, schlepping the darn thing around.
chris ivey wrote:
bmi, sierra, excel, lamar...etc.
Thank you Chris, I forgot quite a few. Looks like Sierra has paused production while they explore new designs, so it's only Williams, GFI, BMI, Excel and Lamar. I didn't see any others in b0b's link list, but I only took a quick look.
Another one, probably the most intriguing one to me, is OnTrack, but I don't know about their availability.
Ian, when the Carter sits beside the Rains, the pedal bar of the Rains guitar is an inch or so forward of the Carter's. This may be owing to the Carter having a shorter apron and thinner raised neck, and my having adjusted the rear legs so that both guitars are at similar heights. Perhaps the leg angles are different, I never really checked. Whatever the reason, that difference makes the Rains work better for me. When I bought the Rains guitar, I assumed I would leave it set up at home and carry the light weight Carter on jobs. That hasn't been the case.
I recently helped the new owner of a used GFI S-10 Ultra make some pedal and tuning changes, and playing it reaffirmed my opinion. Yes, I could get by with an S-10, but I prefer the double body.
