Intonation Woes - HELP!

Paul Heinonen · Post by **Paul Heinonen** » 19 Dec 2015 7:33 am

Hi fellow steelers! I need someone to help me with intonation, it's my biggest frustration at this point. I've been a pedal steel "owner" for 18 months, and have made satisfactory progress with scales, chords, grips, volume swells, etc. I'm confident enough to improvise solos (I'm a guitarist of 38 years) and I'm starting to feel like a pedal steel "player", not just an "owner".

Intonation is the biggest wild card for me at this point in my progress. It's a crap shoot from day to day wheather I'm "on" or not. Some days I can't miss and everything just seems to "land". Other days, it seems the only solution is to walk away as nothing will "hit". It shakes my confidence at gigs because I never know if it'll be a "hit" or "miss" day until it's too late.

I've searched the forum and found the Franklin exercise, but I could use a few other options. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

Paul

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 19 Dec 2015 7:40 am

Paul,
It is mostly practice.
Just throw on music you are familiar with and play a lot along with it.
Your aim and your ear will improve with time.
Backtracks, albums, anything you can play along with.
Also watch your left hand carefully. We sometimes have our bar not perfectly straight (slightly slanted) that'll make everything sound like hell.
Good luck
JB

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Dec 2015 8:39 am

What John said.
Remember there's a parallax factor in bar placement.
There are reference tone generators for nearly all platforms, many of them free. If you're learning a lick in A, set a drone tone at 220Hz (that's open 6th string with B pedal), and use your ears to tune your hands.

Joseph Napolitano · Post by **Joseph Napolitano** » 19 Dec 2015 7:18 pm

Hey Paul. Intonation has been a big challenge for me also . IMHO it trumps everything else in order of importance. If we don't play in tune with other instruments/band members/tracks, not much else is gonna matter. I practice along with a " Cello Drones" cd everyday. Track 1 is six minutes of a C drone,Track 2 is G ,3 is D,etc..following the circle of fifths. The cd is typically available on Amazon. I rarely practice to just "air". I play solos I've lifted from recordings, scale work, improvisation,Paul's bar drill( in E), etc. all against the appropriate drone key track. It's been a long hard grind, but it's definitely paying off. Sometimes I simultaneously use an old Korg tuner with a mike to add visual feedback to check my accuracy. As a side benefit, my vocal sense of pitch has improved a lot also, even though I'll never be a great singer. Also , I believe well-respected forum member Bob Hofner may have drone tracks available.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 19 Dec 2015 8:20 pm

There are a few little tricks you can do that will help you with intonation, and a couple of them are kind of cheating, but they work. Add a little digital delay or reverb, combined with a controlled left-hand vibrato and your intonation will suddenly sound better. Just don't get used to depending on these. Also , the newer your strings are, the better your intonation will be. I get about six to eight gigs out of a set of strings before the intonation has gone to hell.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Dec 2015 8:25 pm

It's an art to play in tune with a live band as opposed to just woodshedding in the basement. Many techniques apply!

Having a good open tuning and having the pedals closely tuned to each other in the right combinations is a good start. Note that you should push the pedal, tune it, push it tune it etc until all is ok. You will end up playing with the string hysteresis after the pedal has activated in most cases anyhow. The first time you hit the pedal and release it, the open tuning will jump a bit so tune for the after pedal effect.

At times you will to play above or below the fret to blend in with the other instruments. Will will vary depending on what those instruments are, how they are tuned, and what pedals you do or don't have activated etc.

Sometimes it best not to play at all during certain portions of a song to avoid listener ear fatigue and at times the steel just does not play well with other sounds.

Slant the bar as needed to tune certain chord positions.

Vary the bar pressure from top to bottom strings to achieve the needed tuning as some times this works better than slanting.

Don't push too hard on the floor pedals causing excessive cabinet drop.

Tune the steel every hour during a gig to get the open tuning at least centered before it starts drifting again.

Many other things apply but it takes practice and time to achieve an in tune sound.

And yes a bit of vibrato well centered on the instruments around you will do wonders to cover up tunings differences!

Paul Heinonen · Post by **Paul Heinonen** » 20 Dec 2015 6:39 am

Wow, thanks everyone! Some great tips here... things I never thought of.

Please keep the tips coming... I want to learn!

robert kramer · Post by **robert kramer** » 20 Dec 2015 6:46 am

Intonation is my biggest challenge - especially working long hours. One thing I do before leaving for a gig is to listen to a CD to get the sound of a really in tune steel player in my head. I play Lloyd Green's "Revisited" or anything by Buddy Emmons (usually "Learn 10 Songs on the Pedal Steel Guitar"). I also have several videos of Emmons playing and I watch these for his left hand vibrato and intonation.

My latest go to CD is Jay Dee Maness' new CD "From Where I Sit." This is one of the most in tune pedal steel records I've ever heard and great for what I've described above.

Dave Campbell · Post by **Dave Campbell** » 20 Dec 2015 7:18 am

something that was already mentioned and that i find very helpful is playing scales over drones. i use this:

http://www.dronetonetool.com

i usually go through scales that use the d lever, then the f lever, then mostly a and b, then b and c. using the metronome feature helps as well.

if i'm practicing licks/intros/solos etc., i'll write the chords into band in a box to give me some reference.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Dec 2015 7:25 pm

That drone-tone site is interesting. I have used something similar using a Digtitech Trio pedal, playing a single chord at different rhythms as a "pad" - the pedal creates bass and drum parts that you an adjust to a couple dozen variations in "feel" and "style" and you can practice playing over the same chord in different positions over the bass/drums "backup band"

Finding a comfortable seating height, distance from the instrument and position in relation to the fretboard is probably the single most important thing IMO. IF you move even one or two frets "sharp" or "flat" of where you played yesterday the parallax shifts, and your entire perception is...well, screwed! Different guitars have varying positions for knee levers (plus many have been added after construction) and are not consistent in how they can be adjusted either, so there is NO standard seating position.

And if you slouch on a particular day, or sit straighter, or use a seat that's close to but not exact in hight it WILL affect the sight angle.

So it's extremely important to map out your body position, posture, arm angles, head tilt (if any) etc. at this point in your playing. Guys who have been at it for 30 years seem to be able to play with their eyes closed, but even after about 10-12 years on and off playing steel I have to be very conscious of body position!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 21 Dec 2015 2:50 am

Jim, off topic but I love your tag line. It was tone (B.E. initially) that drew me to the PSG. I'm not interested in clever playing if the tone leaves me cold.

Billy McCombs · Post by **Billy McCombs** » 21 Dec 2015 6:32 am

One thing that helped me was to make sure your Volume is turned up. If your playing with a loud band you have to be able to hear yourself. Don't let the lead guitar set up next to you.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Dec 2015 9:25 am

Many times, I've been recorded playing something, and then when I go back and listen, I find the result isn't as good as I thought it would be. Probably because, when I play, I'm primarily listening to what I'm doing. But when I hear it later, I'm listening to the whole sound, in context. It takes a lot of concentration to listen to everything else when you're playing. $:\$

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 22 Dec 2015 8:34 am

Here are some things I've used to improve intonation. You can make warm up exercises around these ideas.

Playing the same pitch on different strings, especially descending.

Leaping octaves on the neck - play something in the lower octive say in C at the 8th fret then shift up 12 frets & play the same thing.

Playing slants & tuning out the beats. Even better, playing slants against an open string and tuning out the beats.

On a gig if you are having a 'miss' day you might try playing very simply and channelling your inner Ben Keith.

Steven Albrecht · Post by **Steven Albrecht** » 22 Dec 2015 9:00 am

a newbie here but I have found especially when the guitarists are in an open D chord their guitars are constantly off just alittle so takes really listening, and avoiding that string match if possible, and definaely don't set up next to the lead guitar

Paul Heinonen · Post by **Paul Heinonen** » 22 Dec 2015 10:08 am

Thanks Jim, I especially like your last tip!

Again, thanks to all. I've been working several of the suggestions. Now it's just a matter of time...

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 22 Dec 2015 12:38 pm

I read an article by Buddy Emmons on intonation, and my non-pedal steel teacher, Alan Akaka, both said that playing with closed eyes improves intonation. It's painful at first, but it works - you're depending on your ears rather than your eyes for intonation. Someone in a SGF post said that he saw Buddy backstage playing in the dark. When asked why, Buddy told him that it was to improve his intonation. Good Luck!

Paul Heinonen · Post by **Paul Heinonen** » 22 Dec 2015 2:03 pm

That's a great idea!

Now, where's that light switch...

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 22 Dec 2015 2:40 pm

After I got good enough to get close on intonation I discovered that my tuning protocol was the weak link and I had to step that program up.

Drew Pierce · Post by **Drew Pierce** » 22 Dec 2015 4:39 pm

From your OP, it sounds like intonation is a changing problem when you are in control of everything. That is, you are experiencing these issues even though you are playing the same guitar through the same amp and effects in the same environment. If that's the case, this problem is either changes in your day-to-day playing or it's all in your head. And I don't mean that as an insult.

It sounds like you're still working on your technique. That's a good thing. But there's no shortcut to hours of "seat time" for getting to a place where you feel like your sound is consistent and you can concentrate on learning new songs.

Dale Foreman · Post by **Dale Foreman** » 23 Dec 2015 7:51 am

One thing that i do is I always let the guitar get to room temperature before I tune. I usually ask the other guys to check their tuners to mine. On many occasion I have played with fiddle players that may play a little flat or sharp and my motto is don't chase the fiddle player!!!
Dsle

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 23 Dec 2015 8:16 am

If you are using a programmable tuner in other than the equal mode it will not be accurate in other than open frets so don't use that as a judge.

Curt Trisko · Post by **Curt Trisko** » 23 Dec 2015 8:30 pm

Jack Aldrich wrote:I read an article by Buddy Emmons on intonation, and my non-pedal steel teacher, Alan Akaka, both said that playing with closed eyes improves intonation. It's painful at first, but it works - you're depending on your ears rather than your eyes for intonation. Someone in a SGF post said that he saw Buddy backstage playing in the dark. When asked why, Buddy told him that it was to improve his intonation. Good Luck!

This was my first thought... that the ears need exercise and training. It's technically not a fretted instrument.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 24 Dec 2015 1:45 am

John Booth wrote:We sometimes have our bar not perfectly straight

and I would add that it can appear straight but have uneven pressure between the tip and the heel, which is harder to spot.

Intonation uses a servo system of hand-ear-brain-hand-ear-etc. How many different bits of grey matter are involved between the sensory bit and the motor bit I am not qualified to say, but sportsmen have good and bad days however hard they train for consistency.

If you've never played a sliding instrument there is training required, no doubt. I regard myself as a bad cheat at the steel for having played trombone for fifty years first. But to play a trombone in tune you have to concentrate, which means you have to be wide awake and free of distractions - it never takes care of itself.