cabinet drop

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

What is "cabinet drop"? I performed a search but everybody talking about it already knows somthing about it. The only thing I can come with just from logic is that when you raise or lower strings of an in tune steel it changes tention on the neck and knocks the other strings out of tune. Do I need to worry about it or just trust my ear and play on?
Newbie, Howard

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

"Cabinet drop" refers to the fact that when pedals and knee levers are activated, those strings NOT pulled will neverthless show some change (the most common complaint is that pedal raises such as those on the A,B floor pedals make other strings lower a bit. "Cabinet drop" is not an actual lowering of the cabinet, but the stess (due to pedal pulls) placed on the changer and pulling mechanics causes this phenomena. Guitars vary in the amount of this drop, from minute to noticeable. If you're extremely sensitive to tuning matters, it's a good idea to know the degree that your guitar has and whether it plays havoc with your playing. The only guitar that has a feature to adjust out these "cabinet drop" tuning aberrations is the Emmons LeGrande III which has an optional counterforce mechanism of some sort that allows you to compensate for it. Also, there are some suggested ways of tuning your strings to help compensate as well, but these naturally cause you to be out of tune when no pedals are used, so it's a compromise. In the end, learning to play in tune makes up for just about any pedal steel tuning oddity, of which there are many.

------------------
[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

Have to update the above statement. EXCEL has the "cabinet drop" mechanism installed on their Superb models. Fully adjusted at the factory and should need no more "tinkering with" by the player. But all the knobs etc are there to satisfy everyone's ears and tuners...
thanks,

Bill Stafford

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jeff is correct on the definition of "cabinet drop". The most classic case is string 6 when the A pedal is engaged. The amount of drop can be very noticable on this string (6-8 cents) on some PSG's. I have been told, the new MSA Millenium has none. I would love to test this out. And if it is true, it is a great achievment concerning a very old problem.

Also, Bill is correct,

And unlike the LeGrande III where the counter force is simply pushed against a fixed changer axle, the Excel actually pushes against a pivoting assembly. Albeit is done at the nut end; rather than the changer end.

It is quite clever, and Mituo needs a tip of the hat for his genious in removing the affects of "cabinet drop" on the Excel Superb models.

I have never heard a reason for cabinet drop that completely satisfied me. Some say it is the changer axle bowing. Others say it is the cabinet bowing. Still others say it is the stress of the pedals pulling down on the cabinet. Etc, etc. Yet others say it is a combination of things including what Jeff said.

Ron Lashley Sr adamantly said it is NOT the changer axle bowing. He even described how on the first LeGrandes, the axle was supported between each changer finger, "and it did nothing to stop cabinet drop".

He went on to say, "I KNOW what it is causing it; and it is MORE than one thing; but the LeGrande III solves it; so no point in worrying about its cause". I agree with him totally.

carl

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

Thanks for the input, I'm still not quite sure I completely understand. Say if you had two guitars:same brand,same model,built on the same day by the same person,would they display the same cabinet drop characteristics or would there be differences? Or, is it design from one brand to another? If all of this is true, I would not want to purchase any brand sight unseen after studant level(me), until my ear gets better and I could try them all.Then I think it was Jeff that said "you tune to pitches other than 440 to compensate and that sounds,Maybe, out of tune open,but you learn to play in tune". I'm not sure what that means unless it means compromise.
Thanks,Howard

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

I recall someone saying cabinet drop was unheard of until electronic tuners were invented.??? Was that you Bobbe?

Roger

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Yes you are correct about someone saying that Roger. But very respectfully that is not true. Some of us noted it long before tuners came into vogue. The tuners simply verified what our ears had told us for years. Of course there is no greater proof of the phenomenon than a tuner.

As to Howard's question. In most cases the amount of cabinet drop in a given instance (say A pedal and 6th string) is pretty much the same across all PSG's within a given make and model. But it can vary widely between different make guitars and between different models of the same manufacturer.

If your ears are very sensitive to relative pitch changes, I would strongly urge you to try before buy. I will have to say though, that many players do not notice it. And many who do, do not care about it.

Yet, there are some of us whose ears are soooo critical, it drives us nuts. Thus the reason there is a mod for it on at least two guitars. And I heard that Remington had a mod for it on at least one model.

So it depends on the player. Those who are not bothered by it, no problem. Those who are, the LeGrande III's and Excel's (and Remington's) have done us a great favor.

carl

John Sluszny · From: Brussels, Belgium

A good left hand bar vibrato will help a lot.
No noticeable cab drops (or raises) anymore!
Do the greats like Buddy Emmons,Paul Franklin,John Hughey,the late Jeff Newman and Jimmy Day and all the others sound out of tune when they play good music with good musicians?A little cabinet drop (and raise) is an active part of the pedal steel guitar sound IMHO.

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

John,
What do you mean The "late Jeff Newman"?
Howard

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

John,

Buddy Emmons plays a Legrande III. It has NO cabinet drop. I cannot see him paying the 300 extra bucks per neck for two guitars if cabinet drop was not a problem. Since the counterforce mod is the ONLY difference between a II and a III.

But he would be the one to tell us for sure.

Jeff Newman was tragically killed in a plane crash day before yesterday.

carl

David Doggett · Posted 9 Apr 2004 10:28 am

It seems to me cabinet drop is only a worry when playing open strings with no bar. Say on an E9 you tune the open pedal E chord by tuning the 4th and 8th string Es straight up to a tuner, and tuning the rest of the strings to the Es. When you mash the AB pedals to get an open A chord, the 4th and 8th string Es (which are not pedaled) will go flat by the amount of your guitar's cabinet drop. If you retune the Es straight up with the pedals down, the Es will be sharp when you let off the pedals, and your open E chord will sound off. You can't tune those Es straigt up for pedals up and down.

But if you tune the unpedaled E chord to straight up Es, then mash the AB pedals and tune the A chord to those Es, both the A and E chords will be in tune with themselves, pedals up or down. The entire A chord will be flat by the amount of cabinet drop. Once you use the bar and go fretless, an experienced steeler's ears will automatically compensate the bar position to eliminate that small amount of cabinet drop. Vibrato also helps. So really this is only a problem playing open at the nut. Some players prefer to tune the A chord straight up, and let the E chord be sharp.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

Donny,
Thats what I was thinking when I asked the question. Its like the frame of the steel isn't strong enough to support the extra tention when you pull pedals and the steel tries to fold up. It needs a truss rod like my guitar.Carl Walden told a friend of mine(Johnny Redd) that he was sent a very popular steel of the day to try and he sent it back in a short time because it would not stay in tune,he though it was going to fold in the middle. Is that the reason for aluminum necks?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Aluminum necks have little to no effect on cabinet drop. They are used in most cases to "brighten" the sound. However the aluminum "surround" frame on the Fender PSG's created an almost "no cabinet" drop scenario.

Donny is correct. However, there is another experiment one can perform that is even more perplexing. Knee levers which do not pull down on the cabinet can cause the "cabinet drop" affect also.

So again, Ron Sr was correct. It is more than one thing. I personally believe the axle IS bowing on some guitars. Is it causing all the drop? I would imagine the answer is no. Is it all in the cabinet that is causing it. Again same answer.

One thing is for sure there is approx 30 lbs of pull for each string. On a D-10 this equates to 600 lbs of total stress on the cabinet; just in the open tuning. So who knows what a given pull (or pulls) is stressing upon?

Again, for those who are not bothered by it, it is of no consequence. For those who it bothers, then that is another story.

Also, it affects MORE than just the open tuning. The drop on the 6th string when the A pedal is engaged is intolerable to me. In fact a number of steel players have installed a 2nd raise pull rod on the A pedal to pull the 6th string just a tad to overcome the "cabinet drop" affect when this pedal is engaged.

carl

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Howard, most steels don't really have a frame, per se. They are a shallow, inverted wooden box, or tray. Some, like the Sierra or the old MSA's have what you could call a frame, but it's still not like the old Fender cable guitars. Fender had a one-piece casting which completely surrounded the guitar. This, plus the fact the bodies were made of wood 2 to 3 times as thick as a lot of other guitars, and that the pedal appartus was fastened to the frame (and not the body) probably was the reason that they had no "cabinet drop".

What is termed cabinet drop in the real world is usually caused by several problem factors in the design of the steel, but I feel that for someone to say emphatically "it's not the body flexing" is stretching the truth just a little. The experiment I mentioned in my previous post also indicates otherwise.

In most every steel I've measured, the amount of "drop" is noticeably increased when you push the pedals down harder than necessary. This, I believe, proves emphatically that it's not all just caused by increased string tension on the body and changer-axle flex. String tension and axle flex do not increase when you're pushing harder against the pedal stops, but the downward pulling moment of force on the front of the cabinet certainly does!

I don't think you can make a blanket statement about which is stiffer...wood, or aluminum necks. That probably depends on the design and material characteristics of each, and they may differ from one steel manufacturer to another.

richard burton · From: Britain

Cabinet drop on modern steels has been reduced considerably by better engineering and design. Unfortunately, this has had a negative impact on tone, in my opinion. Most steels made today can't hold a candle in the tone stakes compared to cabinet-drop prone Sho-Buds and ZB's. It seems to me that , by stiffening up the structure, all the life goes out of the steel.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Measure it by connecting a tuner, tune the Es to 0% deviation (straight up). Then press the A and B Pedals, and see how much the needle moves.

2% is typical. Over 4% bothers me.

See photo at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum6/HTML/003532.html
It's a joke but gets the point across.

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

Now I get! it. The joke is worth a thousand words.

Howard

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

I think what happens is that when you push the pedals or the knee levers the strings do stretch and they stay stretched. I think they keep right on stretching until they break.It sounds right and makes sence to me.How many times can they stretch???
Sam White

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I just reread your opening post, Howard.
You got it exactly right the first time.

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

I was thinking more like the counter forces on the guitar Like pulling the string back on a bow. I have come to the conclusion after reading this thread, that its something I shouldn't worry too much about right now(unless its really obvious) while I'm beginning-concentrate more on finding chords and right hand technique. Interesting discussion though.

HM

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

Sorry Joey,
My last reply was ment for Samuel,I wasen,t paying attention,but are you saying that the old guitars were bad about it but sounded good anyway because the players knew how to compensate?

Howard Macey · From: Lander, Wyoming, USA

OK now I'm catching up.
You did say that.

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Howard, don't think anyone paid too much attention to it until "electronic tuners" became cheap. But I have to agree with Donny Hinson on this one. The proof is really when the pressure is put on the center of the guitar frame with no pedals, or levers being actuated, and the "drop" is certainly evident when looking at the "electronic tuner". Can it be heard? I would suppose those who have "perfect pitch" recognition can identify it, but we hackers kinda' 'overlook' it, and just play the parts we're supposed to play. You can bet the farm, most of the customers will never notice it, unless of course you're playing for the "perfect pitch folks".

fred

------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic