adjustable bridge for the steel

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

In another post I had about tuning Paul Franklin posted the following

I believe the adjustable bridge has to be the next evolutionary step for the instrument.....Paul

I have heard this mentioned before. Does anyone know if it is being considered or researched by any of the manufactures

Jeff

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Not sure Jeff,

But I doubt it. This would be some changer! Having a non solid Axle; as all modern changers have would be an engineer's nightmare. It would mean every finger must be supported by its OWN axle and it needs to be adjustable. Wow

As I posted in that thread after Paul said that, there is something on the Anapegs and the Excels that is interesting. And just may fall into the realm of the future (IF my suspicion is correct).

These two changers move left to right to lower or raise strings. IE, unlike all other changers being made today, they do not change pitch by bending the string around a common axle.

It would appear these changers would cause intonation problems. Yet those I contacted (including me) can't hear it. So it is possible, these changers have a built in "stretcher" or "intonation" corrector. And in essence aids intonation; instead of hurting it.

I am not sure.

Time will tell.

carl

Are you troubled? Try this

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

The first thing that comes to mind for me is the changer could work from the other side or could be set back a couple inches with the strings running over an adjustable bridge.

Another thing that comes to mind is that if a player cannot play a current pedalsteel in tune he won't be able to play an adjustable one in tune either.

Bob

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Fender's first PSG's pulled the strings over a fixed bridge that could have easily been made adjustable. However, they as well as most who owned them found out that when you pull a string over a hill, you have created a positive string breaker.

Tell ya how bad it was. When I went to install Ralph Mooney's high G# to A string, there was NO way I could engage the pedal even a single time without it breaking. While subsequent attempts allowed me to pump the pedal several times, there was no case when I could get thru even a single tune without the string breaking.

We then changed the solid bridge to a roller bridge. It did not help one iota. Still broke strings galore.

Fender apparently realizing the goof, completely redesigned the changer and used a moving bridge type approach. Result, No more string breakage.

I agree with your last statement 100%. Jerry Byrd says, "don't try to play in tune by watching the frets when playing a steel guitar. Listen for it!!"

Now on a fretted instrument, that is an entirely different ballgame.

carl

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

For a possible way to do this, see the Mar. 28 post in the "Strings, Gauges, Mechanisms" thread.

BH; A very astute observation, ..you must have heard my playing!

Edp

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Noting this some time ago, as the different lengths on electric guitars, I have been thinking and thinking, but nothing is happening. It seems the Hand/Brain Theory I proposed was dismissed out of hand. So it goes with my best thoughts...

I suppose you could have two slanted axles, and that would work, but it'd be non adjustable, and you think people bitch about cabinet drop now...

Also you could shape the changers of the individual string so that the apex was back slightly, with a common mill file.

The resulting minute lowering of the strings would never be noticed by the picking hand or the bar. It'd be on the order of thousanths of an inch. Differences in string pull at certain points would be negligible. If it indeed proved up with the "filed changer" he next logical step would be to mill one slightly off axis. No big deal.

At a certain point, I realised that what mr BYRD said was right, and that there's not a lot of serious intent behind this whole "tuning deal" or someone with the IQ higher than this dump truck driver would have done what I just proposed.

Three note slants have been used for the best part of last century pretty successfully.
More than "Tone", "Tuning" is All in the Hands.

You either play in tune, or you don't. The Guitar, like the tuning, is the least of it.

Prayer doesn't hurt either.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 March 2004 at 12:31 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Eric, I think you're right...most of it is in the hands!

Re: the adjustable bridge...it wouldn't require separate axles! All you would have to do would be to have the top (1/4") section of the finger machined as a separate piece, and then this could slide back and forth in a dovetail which would be machined on the top of the finger. A small hex-head machine screw would provide the fore-aft adjustment (probably best accessible from the pickup side of the changer).

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Donny, ..I like it! That would solve the string length variation puzzle for the PSG, and allow variation at will (giving pickers an adjustment could be dangerous).

To all invloved, what is the sonic advantage to be realized from the variable string length?

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

A S-12 PSG was played at the Steel Guitar Convention in St. Louis in the 1970s, by the son of the owner of the Howard Guitar Co. This guitar had both individual movable bridge levers(L & R) and individual height adjustable nut rollers.

BTW:The mans name is Jerry Stark.

Roger

[This message was edited by Roger Shackelton on 30 March 2004 at 02:57 AM.]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

I'm confused:

Why does a PSG need adjustable string lengths? The reason it's necessary on a fretted guitar is that the strings are being pressed down and thus stretched, and so the fretted note is sharper than it should be. Adjustable string length compensates for this.

We steelers don't press down on the strings, we're just using what is essentially a "moving capo". So why the need for different string lengths???

-GV

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Greg,
The reason that a guitar has an adjustable bridge isn't because of the strings being pushed against the frets.

Bob

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I agree with Greg on this. The reason that a slanted bridge won't cut it exactly, is because of the string gauges not varying linearly.

If it is not because the strings are being pressed against the neck "sharpening" the strings, I can't imagine what it would be used for.

I believe the way they tune the adjustable bridge proves that. Do they not harmonic the open string at the 12th fret, THEN pick it at the 12th fret and set the bridge adjustment for the same pitch? What are they compensating for? It's the same string.

If I am incorrect, I am very much interested in this, and I will stand respectfully corrected. Because that is what I have been taught and heard for years.

carl

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think Carl is right...at least, that's what I've always understood! If the action is set higher on a straight guitar, the string length will have to be adjusted to maintain intonation due to the increased tension caused by fretting the string.

On a pedal steel, we're not depressing the strings nearly as much, but the bar pressing down on the strings still probably has a measurable (though insignificant) effect.

To answer Greg's question, as referenced in another post by Paul Franklin, adjustable bridges on a PSG would allow the steel to be "stretch tuned" to match the stretch-tuning method used on pianos.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Greg,
I talked with a guitar tech and it turns out you are right about the fret thing. There is another issue though that applies to guitar as well as steel.

Each gauge string vibrates just a little different from each other. For the best intonation you want those vibrations to line up perpendicularly with each other on the neck. The adjustable bridge helps compensate for that.

Bob

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

I hope to add something here.
On a six string fretted guitar, a slanted bridge is a compromise. The really good acoustics have a bridge that is filed in such a way as to adjust each string's length. If one changes gauges, or goes from a plain to a wound, you get to start over. It may look slanted, but close inspection will show peaks for each string.
The electrics with an adjustable bridge for each string, can have almost perfect intonation.

I wonder why we don't compensate for intonation at the nut? Move the rollers back and forth a wee bit to set the intonation.

Carl, fyi... the most troublesome string on a six string fretted guitar is the B string. This plain string ends up being the longest most of the time. IT is also a third in the GBD triad.

Hope this helped

Ron

Skip Mertz · From: N.C. (deceased)

It doesnt seem that it would be that difficult to make the roller bridge adjustable, possible with precision bearings

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Carl I don't think a separate axel for each finger is needed, just a sliding top piece with set screw.
Actually not that hard to do.

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

Ah,but the tuning for guitar is a temper tuning too ! That is why Buzz Fieten(sp?) developed his patented tuning system.If you tune a guitar to a piano,it will not perfectly intonate,therefore you compensate by tuning to the E and then use your ear(JI) for the rest. It also has to do with your feel on the guitar,which is why every guitarist should learn to intonate his own guitar,because everyone's touch is a little different.

------------------
D.S. Rigsby
Carter Starter and various six string toys

John Floyd · From: R.I.P.

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

A staggered bridge on, say, a Les Paul, is there so that each individual string will fret in tune up the neck. You adjust the length of the string so that the harmonic on the 12th fret matches the fretted note at the 12th fret.

We steelers don't fret the strings, so I don't see how this adjustment is relevant to steel guitar.

How does a piano's stretched tuning have anything to do with how our steel guitars intonate as you move up the neck? That's dependent on bar position & bar pressure.

-GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 30 March 2004 at 02:17 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Greg. It IS relevant, but only to three or more note chords. Then, only by the desire to have one of the middle strings intoned better. Also I suppose with two notes played on adjacent strings where they get that "guitar effect" as you noted. Myself, I appearantly slant automatically. I've been testing myself on it, and I find that I slant a lot more than I "wobble".

This is getting interesting.

I'm still wondering about the IIIm in a harmonized scale having to be 5 or more cents flat to "sound good".

I'll check back later.

EJL

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

A movable top piece for the changer fingers sounds like it might not stay concentric with the axle, but maybe I am just not visualizing the idea correctly. Taking another tack, staggered changer axles, as such, sound difficult; but staggered "knife edge" pivots for each changer finger shouldn't be.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jack,

I have the same questions. I can visualize no workable way to shift a moving bridge without having individual axles. Remember all but two changers change pitch by concentrically moving the string around and axle.

This means that no matter what you tried to do the only way to shift one absent the other would be to use a separate axle. I hear and read what some posters are saying. But the more I think about it, the more I have a problem with a common axle.

But then again maybe. I would have to see it work however,

carl

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

IF you can't have individual axles, you do have individual axle holes in the fingers. Try the idea of drilling those off center by the amount that you want that string lengthened/shortened. This would mean "knowing" what you want for string length compensations before assembling the changer.

Now for a variable/adjustable finger, ..trickier machining, but make the axle hole in a separate piece that fits into a slot in the finger (where the axle hole was) and can be positioned via a screw thread through the separate piece, either above or below the axle.

If you can't move the axle, move the hole.

I am still not sure what the sonic advantage would be. As far as I know, the staggered bridge came about on the old arch top guitars (before pickups). In those days there was the problem of playing with the big bands without amplification. This meant having the strings rather high above the neck, hence the apparent need for some type of compensation re intonation. If the staggered bridge was patented, there would be a reason given in the patent for the staggering. My Martin has a slanted (but not staggered) bridge.

Luthiers also added "resonators" (various length fingers of metal) to which the strings were attached, ..do we need these also?

Some Stromberg banjos had resonator tubes of different sizes "under the hood", I have not seen this on the PSG yet; Why not?

Edp

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