| Author |
Topic: Intonation: easier in some songs than in others? |
Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
|
Posted 16 Mar 2004 8:20 am |
|
I've definitely noticed a difference between songs I've played along with on CDs in how easy or difficult it is to keep proper intonation. I'm talking about CDs from neo-traditional artists like Vince Gill, Lee Ann Womack, Trisha, Alan Jackson, and so forth. I don't think it has to do with whether or not the instruments on the CD track are in tune (it's a safe assumption that they are, especially given PF's recent comments on the Forum about how important precise tuning has become in Nashville studios).
My guess is that material that is rich in overtones and generally musically busy is a little easier to stay in tune with (or so it appears) than songs that are made up more of pure tones and are more simple and legato in style. You'd think the latter would be easier to keep good bar position because the beats due to mistuning would be more obvious. But I think that's exactly the reason that the busier songs with more overtones seem easier; they tend to hide slight bar mispositions in their musical complexity.
Any thoughts on this?
------------------
Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?
|
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 16 Mar 2004 9:32 am
|
|
Busyer tracks are usually harder to play in tune with because I need to adjust to more variables.
Bob |
|
|
|
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
|
Posted 16 Mar 2004 10:52 am
|
|
A lot of times it takes me a minute or so to adapt to the intonation of the track. Recently I recorded a steel part on a song that just had acoustic guitar and vocal. At first I sounded way out of tune. After the initial shock I just sat on sustaining chords for a while, moving the bar slightly to get them to sound in tune. It took about a minute to learn how to hear the sweet spots that would work with the track. From then on I was in tune.
The frets are just to get in the ballpark. Your ears will tell you where the in tune spots are.
------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 16 Mar 2004 12:05 pm
|
|
Bobby-How true......Without a good ear, we might ;have to switch to Keyboard or Drums....al 
------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
|
|
|
|
Walter Stettner
From:
Vienna, Austria
|
Posted 16 Mar 2004 2:16 pm
|
|
Yeah, it can be a challenge to play "between the frets"! Sometimes you have to do it!
Kind Regards, Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf
------------------
|
|
|
|
Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
|
Posted 17 Mar 2004 12:53 am
|
|
Bill,
Sometimes the tracks are simply not in pitch. I'm not sure at what stage of the recording and mastering process it's done, but it obviously happens. When I'm playing along with most artists CD's like the ones you mentioned, I seem to be able to have good intonation almost directly over the fret markers, but not always. When a song plays where I need to be somewhere half-way between frets, I feel I have 3 choices, skip that song and go on to one that's in pitch, put the CD on a player that has pitch control and adjust it until it's close enough, or attempt to play outside of my comfort zone and make the best out of it, and perhaps learn something in the process. I guess my particular mood at the time dictates which option I choose, along with if I'm practicing with a particlar focus or goal in mind.
As you already mentioned about PF's post, the players are in extremely good tune with each other when making the recording. What I'm talking about is that sometime after the recording is made, the pitch of the entire track is altered. I can make guesses as to why, but I'm not positive. One guess is that it was determined the song would be better for dancing if it was at a different tempo than originally recorded, or the singer's voice sounded better between G & G#. Perhaps it's simply due to equipment flaws.
I admit I may not know what I'm talking about, but at this point I still think I do.
-- Marc[This message was edited by Marc Friedland on 17 March 2004 at 01:09 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 17 Mar 2004 7:08 am
|
|
Marc,
With the advent of computer based recording tempo and pitch are no longer related.
The question that I wonder about is how the steel player on the stuff coming out of Nashville can play in tune when the rest of the tracks are pitch corrected after the session is over ? Last time I sat and carefully listened to a country track coming out of Nashville it sounded like they where running the Antares McSinger machine pretty hard on just about everything.
Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 17 March 2004 at 07:10 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
|
Posted 17 Mar 2004 7:32 am
|
|
Bob, is there an Antares McSteeler machine? I sure could use one....
I agree that songs that aren't in tune to A-440 (if that's how one tunes one's PSG) are tougher to stay on pitch. But my original comment actually had more to do with the fact that it seems easier to stay on pitch (whether on fret or between frets) for some songs than it is for others. Some songs lend themselves to easier bar positioning because it easier to tell when you're off. Other songs (busier ones, I think) mask slight bar position errors and may make one think one is on key because slight intonation problems are hidden by the music itself. But I'm kindas guessing here. Does that hypothesis make sense?
-Bill |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 17 Mar 2004 8:22 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Does that hypothesis make sense? |
In my opinion, no. The steel sits at the top of the sonic spectrum so if anything is pitchy anywhere in the track the steel can sound out. To sound in tune with a complex track is much more involved and difficult than playing in tune with a sparse track.
Because of the register steel is heard in and because of the clearness of the tone other instruments tend not to mask intonation issues.
Bob
|
|
|
|
Dave Ristrim
From:
Whites Creek, TN
|
Posted 18 Mar 2004 7:23 am
|
|
Sometimes the whole song is VS'ed (variable speed) up or down to give the song more "impact". They used to do this by speeding analog tape up or down, but now you can bump speeds digitaly. This, of course, raises or lowers the whole pitch of the song, making it harder to play in tune with. Also, radio LOVES to speed songs up so they can do their 12-in-a-row with no commercials. Duh, the songs are so fast sounding to me, I would swear Alvin and the Chipmonks were making most of the country records today.
I have not run into problems cutting songs with out of tune vocals which have been pitch corrected later. If the vocal is out, I either have it turned down in my mix or just focus on piano or some other fixed pitched instrument. I'm sure there will be a point where this may give me grief.
Whew, I feel better!
Dave |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 18 Mar 2004 12:10 pm
|
|
I believe that in most cases (besides the WHOLE thing being in pitch (440) or not) is what the band is made of. In other words, if a "band" is just a computer generated thing, it will all play with a very small margin of error between "instruments", creating a thight background to fit in.
Tuning Temperament issues then also become more flagrant between the JI steel and the already thight "ensemble" and the fact that it will likely all be in perfect ET.
I've used a keyboard to create rhythm tracks a long time an found that very problem, thightness and the tuning themperament issues drove me to sell it and stick to tapes with real instruments on it.
... J-D. |
|
|
|
